NERF THE MASTER ALCHEMIST ELIXIRS!!!

[Hoihe]

Since the loot change happened, any not strong enough build cannot loot anywhere.

so unless you make an extremely strong powerebuild you are left of using these elixirs and hoping you can have enough AC to survive the boss in your cl area.


An example,


I have a level 30 mhat went to the fire giant , in a group not alone. and even with tortoise shell and improve mage armor, I got wrecked. Had to be extra careful in every combat and spent a lot of healing poitiopn.

I died at the fire Gian king. I did not charge him alone, I waited for him to be in combat for a while before attacking him. The AI seems to know that I have the lowest ac so it turned on me as soon as I was in range. It killed me really quickly.

With the split, you cannot be raised on server 2 ( if they do it you stay in fugue and talk to myrkul and he sends you to baldurs gate saying you dont belong here. You dont have the choice to spawn in soubar. but that is another point.


so I talked to myrkul and took the xp loss, spawned in SOubar and ran back up the fire giant, trying to get there as fast as I could to continue the run, I brought back every mobs with me, and took a couple of healing potion. and was able to join my group again.

I went insdide the fire giant king cave and the mobs had reset so I had to went out without looting that cave.


we moved to the balors, and again same thing happened, he killed me in a couple of swift hit.

Long story short, for one run, I used 2 elixir and died both time. and was not able to loot the two bosses


My point is this, Yes maybe on powerbuild Tortoise shell elixir and the likes are too powerful , I don't know I dont play one. But on non powerbuilder they are one of the only way to survive hunting in their cl areas.


So if you really want to consider debuffing these elixir, I would start by debuffiung the bosses so that they dont get necessary to simply survive.

This, in a way, I feel supports my stance.

The reasoning is as follows:

When someone complains that due to current enemy balance and weight of healing kits and cost of potions of Heal, they spend far too much gold to be able to survive (whether in party or solo) - people tell them "Just use mirror image wands!" which solves nothing, and makes it mandatory to use mirror image to survive server content. Coincidentally, mirror image is a self-buff and you can only acquire it by getting a wand that needs 13 UMD.

The only way to survive without Mirror Image is a super rare vampiric regen drop that's of value 2 or 3; or spend a fortune on potions of Heal (1K per encounter, more for boss fights) if you lack the carry weight/skill points for dropping 5 heal kits per encounter.

Because UMD is so ingrained, nobody seems to see any issue with this.

A similar scenario occurs when an area has multiple mobs capable of casting save or die spells, or save or lose spells. You are told (incl by myself) to get a wand of Death Ward, as otherwise going thru such an area is hopeless. Or PfA if save or lose.

Because UMD is so ingrained, nobody seems to have any issue with this. And in case of Death Ward, due to nature of the classes that can cast it in the first place - partying can often end up being an OOC agreement despite IC conflict between the characters which I do not think is healthy for an RP server.


Further, by making +4 gear more easy to acquire, area builders/balancers and DMs alike have come to treat having a full +4 set of gear (so +20/+16 AC depending on shield or not) as mandatory and baseline. Which means those who lack the time or luck to get a full +4 set by level 30 are out of luck and can't really do anything.

We turned something that was a "special end-scenario power level" into "mandatory/baseline."






So now, based on the above:

You say that without tort shell and other elixirs, you cannot survive content you are mandated to do by loot rebalancing. If tort shell elixir remains as it is, should you complain and request rebalancing of your classes or areas - people in power will look at the availability of such buffs and go "stop whining, learn to play and buy some elixirs." This is not an ideal outcome.

If however you can not use either UMD or elixirs to do these areas, and your build makes logical sense (fighter 30 or sth like that) and you cannot do content you are supposed to do - EVEN IN A PARTY - then neither DMs or designers have any right to tell you to "learn to play, use elixirs" as you cannot, and are consequently (hopefully, but doubtful) they'll either buff fighter 30, or rebalance areas (or their DM event mobs) so that you can play too.

I do not want the server to end up requiring tortoise shells and to use the same rhetoric as is already used for Mirror Image to shutdown valid complaints of balance.

If we can get a guarantee that elixirs will NOT be observed in DM events or assigning CR to areas (ergo - things will NOT be balanced to require it for either normal or power builds) - then fine, we don't need any changes. But my experience on this server is that "If there exists a way for players to acquire additional power, then over the years that will become mandatory to be able to do anything."

[Xorena]

As one of the two players who currently has a druid capable of making these two potions... If this were an overpowered class there would be far more level 30 druid Master Alchemists. I'll attempt to explain so folks can understand exactly what a MA can do.

I have Master Alchemists on multiple classes because I have always enjoyed crafting and merchant RP and I have done this in every game I have played (I almost had an item named after my character in Everquest because I was nearly the first to complete a crafting quest, but I decided to sleep instead of power through it).

Not all classes need be level 30 Master Alchemists to make the best potions, but for some of them you do, namely the Druid*. You can make potions up to level 3 spells. Elixirs can be made up to level 6 spells (but not all spells). Scrolls can go all the way to level 9.

(*You can technically make a greater heroism CL 30 elixir with a Bard or Wizard, but that increases the duration to 1 minute/CL, however, the max temporary hitpoints is 20. While it is a slight improvement over the potion, it is not worth the increased cost. A potion costs ~1,150 from the Enclave, and a CL 30 Elixir probably costs 3,600 raw cost (less for the Bard I think?), won't last three times as long as the potion, plus it gives toxicity. Of course this assumes you even have a level 30 of any other class, which is less difficult now with full RCR, but I digress.)

PCs who can use wands instead will certainly prefer a wand (due to cost and lack of toxicity). Those can be crafted up to a level 4 spell. For those without UMD or the spell is level 5 or 6, potions and elixirs are the only option.

If the nerf is a balance argument, there's a lot more work to do there than two potions made my the two people playing MA druids.

[matelener]

Speaking from experience of somoene who buys a lot of Tortoise/Owl insight elixirs and takes full advantage of them, it's hard to argue these particular two are balanced.

My character receives +9 AC from the first one and omits the penalty by prebuffing with FoM, while the other gives me +6 AC, +6 will save, +6 listen/spot ( if I were a wis-monk, I'd also get +6 AB). Furthermore, these two at highest CL last for almost the entire server reset and I have pretty much no reason to rest and dispel them.

[Anrilor]

If the nerf is a balance argument, there's a lot more work to do there than two potions made my the two people playing MA druids.

Speaking from experience of somoene who buys a lot of Tortoise/Owl insight elixirs and takes full advantage of them, it's hard to argue these particular two are balanced.

My character receives +9 AC from the first one and omits the penalty by prebuffing with FoM, while the other gives me +6 AC, +6 will save, +6 listen/spot ( if I were a wis-monk, I'd also get +6 AB). Furthermore, these two at highest CL last for almost the entire server reset and I have pretty much no reason to rest and dispel them.

My general argument for the nerf would be to see the CL limited to 25, that way there is still a small chance of them being dispelled by greater dispel. That way the most beneficial way to go about the daily grind is to actually bring the casters with rather then use your pocket gold for the potions. By the CL still being 20+ you still get the full benefit of the spell in elixir form. sure it might be 5 IG hours shorter for those spells, but that is still plenty of time to get your runs in. Also, if you have a high enough fort, you are willing to more often then not go over that 2 elixirs before you have to start making poison checks.

Scrolls are limited to CL 15, except for level 9 spells which are 17 because of the lowest CL needed to cast those spells. Wands I think are defaulted to lowest CL (I could be wrong on that, never had a wand caster before)

There would still be incentive and money to make with the elixirs, but it would be riskier, and you couldn't run though all the epic areas without need of rest because you'd have to worry about a dispel screwing things up.

IMO we should look away from the "Can I solo this with x items" look at things. I know that's how part of our community looks at weather or not a build is good or not. But as far as I am aware, we are an RP community first, and should look to bring people with us on our ventures when we can. The elixirs have allowed many to make some people have basically a pocket caster with them at all times if you have enough varied Elixirs and potions, and you don't even need any UMD to use it unlike Wands and Scrolls.

[Habitu]

There is a 15 CL cap on scrolls, but Elixirs are skewing the power curve. Shouldn’t there be some sort of “reigning in” here? Maybe a CL cap of 20? Maybe a greater toxicity malus? CL 30 is bogus because of 100% immunity to Gr. Dispel. Elixirs ain’t no gin and juice fun ride, either. Where is the risk?!?

Hello again.

I just wanted to offer a reminder that part of this request is technically already instituted. Much like Potions and Scrolls, any self-target-only spells that are made into elixirs have a CL 15 cap. As a result, there is a significantly smaller list of spells than "every spells minus the four listed in my previous post".

As such, this type of nerf is already fairly broadly applied to the class, with very few high-demand spells still available at CL30. There are some situational healing items, like Regenerate and Rejuvenating Cocoon, but their effects are tangibly more expensive than Heal Potions for the same health. Beyond that, buffs fall into either "Ignorable", like CL 30 Endure Elements or Energy Immunity which functionally don't change how the spell interacts; or "Game changers" that enable and magnify specific builds, like the druid/monk combo enabled by Turtle/Insight.

It is my personal opinion that these "Game changer" spells should be addressed on an individual level, rather than further hammer the class with broad changes given the pruning it has already received.

For the record, I would love brewing 9th level spells at the cost of 5 more class levels

+1 to both of Kitsune's input, If the only problem with MA is those two spells just look at them individually not at the whole class. MA does not need a hard Nerfhammer on it.

[Young Werther]

Right, I don't see a reason to nerf 30cl elixers where the alternative is to have a 30+ caster friend buff you for free. The only ones to look at are the self buff only spells imo. It's nice having an alternative path to gain spell bonuses and the toxicity should prevent spamming these elixers.

[Xorena]

Wands I think are defaulted to lowest CL (I could be wrong on that, never had a wand caster before)

I never understood why a PC cannot decide what level to make their wand. I think this needs updating too.

[Steve]

What actually is the toxic effects of Elixirs? Can anyone confirm?

[Kitunenotsume]

What actually is the toxic effects of Elixirs? Can anyone confirm?

This has been asked before, and the reply received was:

Experiment, no documentation shall be written.

As far as I am aware, there is no official documentation nor intent to produce it, and side-effects of various types occur at increasing magnitude for each elixir after the first, when imbibed by anyone beyond the Master Alchemist.
I personally have not had the funds to throw at convincing friends to chug a bunch and record the effects, but perhaps someone else has?

[mrm3ntalist]

Soooo instead of "nerfing" the druid, then nerfing elixirs, then nerfing monks using elixirs, why not jut nerf those 2 spells - owls insight and tortoise shell? Obviously that is the problem...

[tankteddy]

Isn't the missing part of this topic the fact that in Lore Druids Normal don't give out their secrets/powers as freely as say "I put this on the auction house"
Aside from that If the issue is with master alchemist you shouldn't nerf Druids and Spirit Shamans.

[Rain]

Soooo instead of "nerfing" the druid, then nerfing elixirs, then nerfing monks using elixirs, why not jut nerf those 2 spells - owls insight and tortoise shell? Obviously that is the problem...

Rational thinking?

No we don't do that here...

...

NERF ANOINTED KNIGHT!

[Bobthehero]

Nerf the AK, but buff the WoD, agreed

[DM Gixustrat]

I personally like the idea of adding them to the breach list

[Arn]

Speaking from experience of somoene who buys a lot of Tortoise/Owl insight elixirs and takes full advantage of them, it's hard to argue these particular two are balanced.

My character receives +9 AC from the first one and omits the penalty by prebuffing with FoM, while the other gives me +6 AC, +6 will save, +6 listen/spot ( if I were a wis-monk, I'd also get +6 AB). Furthermore, these two at highest CL last for almost the entire server reset and I have pretty much no reason to rest and dispel them.

+1

My wisdom monks chug Owl's Insight elixirs whenever they want Super Saiyan steroids. +6 AC, +6 AB, +6 Spot, for pretty much the entire server reset.
And don't forget the boost to Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm DCs.
Throw a Tortoise elixir on top of all that, and you have the tankiest of boys.

NGL, I enjoy playing a bald godling, but I shouldn't be able to. These super steroids should get a CL cap at least. I'll be disappointed if that happens, but wisdom monks should NOT have such easy access to CL 30 Owl's Insight.

Seen below: a wisdom monk on CL 30 Owl's Insight.

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