Suggestion: Mystic Theurge

[Dawrf]

Good luck convincing competent people that you're fine as Wiz30/Cle30, or whatever else.

Honestly, I would love if you could make a post without a single hyperbole.

Sure thing. As far as dispels are concerned. For everything else (dmg dice & spell power, spell duration, spell penetration, DC...), not by far. I don't even...

For an 'EDM' build, what matters is the fact that you do not loose your buffs in the middle of a fight. Just consider the usage of UMD prior to the dispel fix, the 'low' caster levels on wands and scrolls did not really hinder our UMD consumers.

A character with two spellbooks, of which one is CL 30, can never be balanced in this meta, unless you apply the restrictions I suggested, or similar.

In which case I hope you would provide a concrete example of some sort. Because the lesser spell book can be still easily dispelled, therefore limiting the viable selection of spells, which leaves us with a single class caster that is around 6~ feats short of a proper single class caster. Feats that could be spend on anything to build a stronger character.

You couldn't get farther from truth. This comparison is absolutely baseless, even if you simply consider the options involved. HiPS Rogues have critical weaknesses they can never cover. Nobody with a modicum of knowledge would ever call them OP.

'Critical Weaknesses they can never cover.' Nothing that cannot be solved via equipment and correct use of UMD. (Well, it forms a gold sink.)

But if you think a couple of epic feats on a lvl 30 caster isn't worth ALSO being a lvl 18 OTHER caster, adding a second spellbook, then I don't think we are ever going to agree on this class and its viability and implementation options.

Correction: "Level 14 in another caster class" with the effective caster level of 18.

[Dawrf]

Well, if the above discussion can be summed up as anything, it is as follows:

One side of this argument wishes to limit the possible number of spell slots including access to spell levels - and - the other side wishes to maintain the possibility of acquiring a caster level of 30 with one of the spell books.

Suggestion for a compromise:

Mystic Theurge provides limited caster progression, such as the previously suggested 6/10, but also provides a 'Practised Spell Caster (Mystic Theurge) class feat that would grant +4 caster levels in two spell books.

[AC81]

I don't write as well as Invoker, nor am I as experienced in building/playing arcanes as he is, but to me the issue comes down to this:
Mystic Theurge seeks to combine two of the arguably most powerful classes on our server. Either one of a CL30 cleric or wizard will dominate the server mechanically with little drama. So to the argument of "Well the CL 18 spell book will be easily dispelled" is redundant because it really doesn't matter if it does get dispelled, it's really just so much icing on an already awesome cake! Anybody can go to areas where there are no or few dispels ... or you could save buffs for boss style encounters or midway through encounters. My point is, you can avoid dispels, my fighters have been doing it for years very successfully.
So what is being asked for then becomes very unreasonable whether you choose to specialise or dabble in either divine or arcane.
Also (here comes my dislike of buffing and my caster prc jealousy) do casters really need another uber prc at their fingertips ??? Do we need to list all the truly awesome (game breaking) prc's already available to them?

[chad878262]

Sorc losing epic feats is not really a great argument as I don't know of any 'pure' sorc's. Sorc is pretty much always going to take ASOC anyway unless it's some sort of Paladin/Eldritch Knight (and maybe will still take ASOC). I would guess a Sorc Mystic Theurge would look something like Sorc6/SS4/MT10/ASOC10... CL 30 Sorc, 18 Spirit Shaman w/ all the improved meta-magic at your fingertips. What did this character 'give up' that a normal DC or Blaster Sorc would not have already given up? For that matter, what would a similar build with Cleric or Druid be giving up? Gain those extra benefits from cleric/druid while being an armored caster if you were going to build your sorc w/ auto still anyway what have you lost?

What about a Storm Singer? Bard 4/Cleric 6/Storm Singer 10/Mystic Theurge 10 w/ level 14 Songs, CL18 w/ level 5 Bard spells, CL 30 Cleric... hmmm, gives up level 6 Bard spells, but without MT it would have only had level 2 bard spells so....really it only gains.

[Invoker]

Well, if the above discussion can be summed up as anything, it is as follows:

One side of this argument wishes to limit the possible number of spell slots including access to spell levels - and - the other side wishes to maintain the possibility of acquiring a caster level of 30 with one of the spell books.

My suggestion on page 5 was:

Want to balance it? Adjust the requirements so that it can be taken only from lvl 6 on, and limit it to Wiz/Cle (so, the only possible build would be Wiz/Cle/MT). Make Skill focus Spellcraft and Concentration mandatory. There: balanced.

Have fun.

You CAN get to CL 30 with one class, and to CL 18 and 7th Circle spells with the other. You can also go for a more balanced choice: it depends how buff-heavy you want to be.

Plenty of spell slots, and 9th Circle on one side and 7th Circle on the other isn't exactly "limited access".

The character would perform well, and you get to RP and play Mystic Theurge. Hyperbole or not, I still don't understand why anybody would disagree with this type of implementation...aside from obvious PBuilding.

I don't write as well as Invoker, nor am I as experienced in building/playing arcanes as he is, but to me the issue comes down to this:
Mystic Theurge seeks to combine two of the arguably most powerful classes on our server. Either one of a CL30 cleric or wizard will dominate the server mechanically with little drama. So to the argument of "Well the CL 18 spell book will be easily dispelled" is redundant because it really doesn't matter if it does get dispelled, it's really just so much icing on an already awesome cake! Anybody can go to areas where there are no or few dispels ... or you could save buffs for boss style encounters or midway through encounters. My point is, you can avoid dispels, my fighters have been doing it for years very successfully.
So what is being asked for then becomes very unreasonable whether you choose to specialise or dabble in either divine or arcane.
Also (here comes my dislike of buffing and my caster prc jealousy) do casters really need another uber prc at their fingertips ??? Do we need to list all the truly awesome (game breaking) prc's already available to them?

+1, and you DID write it better and clearer than I did .

This 14 CL +4 additional spellbook that is regarded as "useless"...I mean, we can sit here and write all day, however a CL 30 cleric that also has an additional spellbook with the likes of Alarm, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Web, Gust of Wind, Invisibility, Claraudience/Clairvoyance, Vampiric Touch, Enervation, Bigby 5, Cloudkill, Avasculate among others (and I don't even want to enter in the blasting, with the likes of Orbs, Firewall or IGMS...even more options, depending on the people you group up with and the mission ahead) in areas where you GET dispelled, and adds to areas where you DO NOT encounter dispels Shield (if you wanna two-hand), IMA, Haste, Displacement, Mirror Images, Heroism/GH, Greater Stoneskin, Shadow Shield and the likes seems quite playable

In fact, you'd have to be pretty inexperienced to say this isn't strong.

The Wiz30 Cle 18 version is just as good.

TL ; DR: yeah, a CL 14+4 additional spellbook is worth that couple of bonus epic feats, especially if you are already a CL 30 caster.

[Thorsson]

Also do casters really need another uber prc at their fingertips ??? Do we need to list all the truly awesome (game breaking) prc's already available to them?

This.

Let's give any love to the classes that struggle in the Brave New World first...

[Dawrf]

Mystic Theurge

Hit Dice: d4
Base Attack Bonus: Low
Fortitude Save Progression: Low
Reflex Save Progression: Low
Will Save Progression: High

Class Skills:
Concentration (Con), Craft Alchemy (Int), Craft Armors (Int), Craft Weapons (Int), Lore (arcana) (Int), Lore (religion) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor ProficiencyMystic theurges gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Spells per Day:
Level 1: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression
Level 2: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression, +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 3: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression
Level 4: +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 5: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression
Level 6: +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 7: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression
Level 8: +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 9: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression, +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 10: +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression

Practiced Spell Caster (Mystic Theurge):
(Gained on level one) Your caster level for the chosen two spellcasting class increases by +4. This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain noncaster-level HD you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus.

Requirements:
- Classes: Cannot have any other prestige class.

- Skills:
Lore (arcana) 8 ranks, Lore (religion) 8 ranks.

- Spells:
Able to cast 1st-level divine spells and 1st-level arcane spells.

[Rhifox]

I don't see why it needs the Practiced Spellcaster thing.

[Dawrf]

Sorc losing epic feats is not really a great argument as I don't know of any 'pure' sorc's...

My suggestion for a Mystic Theurge was 'created' with the caveat of not allowing Mystic Theurge to be taken with any other spell casting PRC. Just like a level of Druid or Monk prevents you from gaining a level in the other, a level of Mystic Theurge or any other spell casting PRC would close off the possibility for the other.

The latest iteration of this suggestion would forbid all other PRCs. Therefore, we are limited to the realm of base classes and Mystic Theurge.

Thus, if a '14 (18) / 26 (30)' build cannot rely on their inferior spell book due to dispels, it reduces them into a 'single caster class' build. A build without the epic bonus feats, a build with at least two wasted feats on practiced spell caster and missing any other perks offered having 30 levels in a single class.

(And welcome back to the topic Chad, you might want to check around pages 2-3 for your previous posts.)

[Dawrf]

My suggestion on page 5 was:

Want to balance it? Adjust the requirements so that it can be taken only from lvl 6 on, and limit it to Wiz/Cle (so, the only possible build would be Wiz/Cle/MT). Make Skill focus Spellcraft and Concentration mandatory. There: balanced.

Have fun.

If you go to the first post, you can find the skill requirements. (8 ranks in two skills.)
Level 1: Max 4 Points in a skill
Level 2: Max 5 Points in a skill
Level 3: Max 6 Points in a skill
Level 4: Max 7 Points in a skill
Level 5: Max 8 Points in a skill
Level 6: You might be able to qualify for Mystic Theurge PRC!

As for the rest of your suggestion, you can still make a power build that was argued to be near equal with an EDM Favored Soul.
- 2 Skill Focus feats,
- 2 Practiced Spell Caster feats,
- Power Attack,
- Divine Might,
- Extend Spell or Still Spell,
Sums up to 7/7 Pre-Epic feats.

Therefore, what you have suggested here would only increase the need to go for a 'specific power built' in order to make use of the PRC. Ergo, rest of your suggestion would limit the role-playing possibilities in favor to the above gishy power build.

This 14 CL +4 additional spellbook that is regarded as "useless"...I mean, we can sit here and write all day, however a CL 30 cleric that also has an additional spellbook with the likes of Alarm, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Web, Gust of Wind, Invisibility, Claraudience/Clairvoyance, Vampiric Touch, Enervation, Bigby 5, Cloudkill, Avasculate among others (and I don't even want to enter in the blasting, with the likes of Orbs, Firewall or IGMS...even more options, depending on the people you group up with and the mission ahead) in areas where you GET dispelled, and adds to areas where you DO NOT encounter dispels Shield (if you wanna two-hand), IMA, Haste, Displacement, Mirror Images, Heroism/GH, Greater Stoneskin, Shadow Shield and the likes seems quite playable

You have often claimed to be an expert of playing casters on this server. How about you go ahead to NWN2db.com and produce an actual example build for us to peruse. Because, in order to cast all those spells you have listed above, once again, either you do it without any armor or shield, or you have to make use of the Still metamagic. (Either spend spell slots one level higher, or get the epic feats.)

Now, since you talk about wizards, let us have a look at a 'level 14 wizard' and its base spell slots:

Level 1: 4
Level 2: 4
Level 3: 4
Level 4: 4
Level 5: 3
Level 6: 3
Level 7: 2

Now let us have a look at those spells:

Alarm (It is a role-play spell),
(Level 1)

Grease (Available through cleric domain),
(Level 1)

Ray of Enfeeblement,
(Level 1) Not nearly as useful without maximize or empower spell.

Web (Available through cleric domain),
(Level 2)

Gust of Wind (Available through cleric domain),
(Level 2)

Invisibility (Available through cleric domain),
(Level 2)

Claraudience/Clairvoyance (Available through cleric domain),
(Level 4)

Vampiric Touch,
(Level 3) Not nearly as useful without maximize or empower spell.

Enervation,
(Level 4) Not nearly as useful without maximize or empower spell.

Bigby 5,
(Level 5) The only spell that actually carries some weight.

Cloudkill,
(Level 5) Works through a save, do you have spell DCs.

Avasculate.
(Level 7) Someone needs to spend three epic feats to cast this in armor.



As for the 'blaster' spells from Orbs to Walls and Missiles: Not nearly as useful without maximize or empower spell.


As for the buffs, you can indeed remove your armor and cast them, but you have to be able to safely remove your armor again to recast them. It imposes limitations.

In fact, you'd have to be pretty inexperienced to say this isn't strong.

What I am trying to say is that you have to be pretty inexperienced to claim that it is strong, without also mentioning that some terms and conditions apply.

[Dawrf]

I don't see why it needs the Practiced Spellcaster thing.

In this topic we have discussed of Cleric 13/Wizard 17 and Cleric 17/Wizard 13 builds that worked prior to the dispel fix, but do not any more as they get heartlessly dispelled. Moreover, without the additional 'Practised Spellcaster thing' a Cleric 10/Wizard 10/Mystic Theurge 10 would not be much better than a 'Cleric 15/Wizard 15' build.

And that raises the question, why implement a PRC that is mechanically less sound than a Black Flame Zealot? (If ask help with building one, you are encouraged not to.)


Therefore, the 'Practiced Spellcaster thing' is needed in order to grant Mystic Theurge at least some level of basic viability.

[Dawrf]

Also do casters really need another uber prc at their fingertips ??? Do we need to list all the truly awesome (game breaking) prc's already available to them?

This.

Let's give any love to the classes that struggle in the Brave New World first...

The only 'uber' aspect that Mystic Theurge has is the fact that it would allow people to build and RP their 'AD&D Cleric/Mages.'

[AC81]

Mystic Theurge

Hit Dice: d4
Base Attack Bonus: Low
Fortitude Save Progression: Low
Reflex Save Progression: Low
Will Save Progression: High

Class Skills:
Concentration (Con), Craft Alchemy (Int), Craft Armors (Int), Craft Weapons (Int), Lore (arcana) (Int), Lore (religion) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor ProficiencyMystic theurges gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Spells per Day:
Level 1: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression
Level 2: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression, +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 3: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression
Level 4: +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 5: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression
Level 6: +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 7: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression
Level 8: +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 9: +1 Divine Spell Casting Progression, +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression
Level 10: +1 Arcane Spell Casting Progression

Practiced Spell Caster (Mystic Theurge):
(Gained on level one) Your caster level for the chosen two spellcasting class increases by +4. This can't increase your caster level beyond your HD. However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, if you later gain noncaster-level HD you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus.

Requirements:
- Classes: Cannot have any other prestige class.

- Skills:
Lore (arcana) 8 ranks, Lore (religion) 8 ranks.

- Spells:
Able to cast 1st-level divine spells and 1st-level arcane spells.

I actually think this one looks alright, except ...
Take out the bonus practiced caster feats and I think MT should be limited to Cleric/Wizard only to avoid any Favoured Soul or Sorcerer cheese (using the same casting attribute).

[NeOmega]

5/10 SCP okay

10/10 SCP no freakin' way.

The original looks fine to me, if the practiced spellcaster is pulled, as it already boosts both classes two levels. If the builder wants to uber it up, they can spend the two feats to uber it up, or perhaps make the feat available, but force the builder to spend a feat on it.

[Tsidkenu]

Out of the now 90 posts in this thread, 37 of them are Dawrf's.

Of those 37, 28 are discussing builds in some fashion.

And not many of the remaining nine posts discuss RP avenues of the proposed class. The whole discussion has been dominated by mechanics, and I suspect the reasons behind that are obvious enough.

Roleplay wise, I might consider taking it if it was available. It is a natural fit for my Mystran priestess and people have been calling her a theurge IC/OOC even without implementation of the class.

Even with the new proposed version I would bother taking more than 6 levels in the class (at the expense of 2 wizard and 4 cleric levels) because it doesn't bestow any major mechanical benefit to my current build besides one extra 8th and 9th level wizard spells and class access to the Sense Motive skill. And quite frankly, considering I've just RCRed Aeili and spent 90k on wizard scrolls, I don't know if I'd even bother doing that.

I don't need the Mystic theurge class to roleplay as one, and I fully accept the weakness that character now has with the dispel fix (although to be quite frank, I never even knew about that bug and it was never intended as a 'feature' of my character).

This class, in any form, is not really needed on the server, and especially not the PnP version.