Steve wrote:I appreciate all rumors posted by DMs. But unless I have a toon in the Zhentarim, why is my PC supposed to care about this? Pointing out one example as answer to how DMs make an effort to "inform" individual Players or the general Playerbase of success of a evil Guild, does not make the "problem" solved.
Steve wrote:I wanted to say, as a response to this, that it would probably be beneficial to the Player(s) to inform them—either via OOC or some generate IC means—that they are "making a difference," and that it is being recognized.
Whether PCs care about it outside the Zhentarim or not is up to them of course IC (and OOC for the players), but I was answering your above point that you made with an example of permanent "making a difference" as we asked the devs to add something permanent to the world map in reaction to Zhentarim RP initiative and the devs kindly did. Correct me if I am wrong, but your tone above implied to me that you had not seen DM recognition in our world before of "making a difference" in regards to evil RP, so I was pointing out a recent example where we had. Should we strive to do this more when warranted? Of course, but it would be inaccurate to say (explicitly or implicitly) that this does not happen (as in never) currently.
Steve wrote:I am completely aware that many things are going on behind private forums and are not posted publicly to prevent metagaming. But if you are referring to my comment on DM Pun Pun's comment that some Evil PCs are actually causing chaos but probably not aware of it, I specifically am saying is it not possible for the DMs to somehow...encourage...those evil PCs, through some means? For example:
- a vision from their patron deity.
- a special rumor reaching their ears.
When it does not ruin plot suspense, surprise, or risk metagaming, we strive to do as much. I know that many DMs of the past year have done so multiple times.
Steve wrote:Look, I hardly expect DMs to do everything, if that is what the Team is mistaking in hearing from what I've been writing in this Thread. Whether the Team believe me or not, in the last 2 months, I have been in repeated OOC contact with a handful of IC and OOC known evil guilds/factions, and each and every one has member(s) that lament the impossibility of moving forward their ideas/actions/desires, that are IC and logical for their PCs, in that organization.
We are working on some things to try to expand social opportunity for evil PCs (and chaotic PCs as well hopefully), some of which have already started, but we plan for more to follow.
Steve wrote:So whether it is nice to read/hear, or not, the perception from Players in many evil-aligned Guilds/factions is that the DMs are against them. Period.
Now, whom am I to say who is telling the truth, who is right and who is wrong? Honestly, I really do not want to be any where near that decision.
Whether this is actually a popular perception or just yours and a few others, is really besides the point to us. If there is one unhappy player, we are going to try to improve his or her play experience as best we can as mentioned above. We value every player's enjoyment on this server.
Steve wrote:What I consistently ask is for help. What I keep reading is push back, and well, examples that stand as excuses. Don't get me wrong, I think the DMs are doing their "jobs," and personally, I have some private help on the DM Team to make some changes that hopefully will make my role-play experience more fun, more possible and more viable.
I think you may be confusing objective "examples" for "excuses" here. Please refer again to two recent comments that you made:
Steve wrote:I wanted to say, as a response to this, that it would probably be beneficial to the Player(s) to inform them—either via OOC or some generate IC means—that they are "making a difference," and that it is being recognized.
Steve wrote:I specifically am saying is it not possible for the DMs to somehow...encourage...those evil PCs, through some means? For example:
- a vision from their patron deity.
- a special rumor reaching their ears.
Please feel free to fault my reading comprehension, but I read both of these as implicitly saying that the DM team does not (as in never) communicate to evil PCs when they are "making a difference" and that we do not "somehow encourage those evil PCs, through some means?...-a vision... from deity...-special rumor." Thinking that was your implied meaning, it is rather reasonable to then offer specific counter-examples in the good-faith interest of deriving truth in the discussion. This is not excuse making, it is just truth-oriented conversation in an internet forum context, something that I am guessing that we can mutually agree is a mutual value to try to hold in threads such as this. If this was not your intent, then I recommend perhaps making it clearer next time that you are not saying "never" but instead maybe "not enough" when pointing out what you believe to be DMing or otherwise community deficiencies. I say this also noting that you had multiple DMs emphasize with your points and say "we need to do better" while pointing out that some of your perceived implicit generalizations were inaccurate with examples.
Steve wrote:But it is like this, guys and gals: a Player Request system is far from a system in which the DMs support and help Players achieve their goals. Obviously, I have my own empirical experience with the DM Team and that reflects on my perception of what the Team is willing to do, and not willing to do.
It does for many players, but not for all. Again, I am concerned you may be dismissing those players that do indeed get RP enjoyment from this system in favor of a implicit generality that seems to think nobody gets RP enjoyment from player requests. As said before, we want enjoyment of all players on this server. We have some initiatives in progress or in the works that we hope will help to encourage more social opportunities for evil PCs to organize in light of this, outside of the player request system or complementing it.
Steve wrote:But when a group of Players humble themselves to say "help us," and the DMs are in the majority saying "we're already doing our job," then you gotta ask if there is any possible solution, beyond this point. I am asking myself that, right now.
The DM team is never done doing its job and I don't see any DM saying that. I just see DMs responding with examples that dismiss some claimed generalities (explicit or implicit) and otherwise offering suggestions and feedback on how to improve social opportunities for evil PCs to organize their RP on our server if that is what they wish as well as emphasizing with your points and others'.
This is not directed at you, Steve, but in general I would caution any players upset with the state of evil RP to be more patient, nuanced, and conciliatory in their demands as how to fix it as it can be quite demoralizing to DM team members (whom are all volunteers as you all know) to be bashed for not doing things that they are in fact spending lots of time and energy doing or are trying to do -- and demoralizing DM team members actually makes any DMing problem harder to solve, not easier.
Steve wrote:I am asking the DM Team, specifically, to implement some form of NPC-based evil support, so that Evil PCs do not need to make their existence all about messing with good-PCs, their good Guilds, and becoming a PvP or CvC or whatever kerfluffle.
Evil PCs should not have to be stuck with 2 choices: a) pretend to be good or lawful, and go along with the general flow of the Server, b) cause havoc for good or good-leaning PCs and the Player Guilds.
As said before generally, we have some initiatives in progress already (specifically related to UD and Orcish RP and some specific evil guilds) in regards to giving social opportunities for evil RP to organize and we have others in the works.
Steve wrote:And, for the love of Ao, don't make it a system in which the Player must request it. That just isn't working!
I would caution against such an opinion, as if we did not make DMing choices based off player requests at least in part, then many things RP wise that are working right now would not exist, nor arguably would what you want as it is, well, a player request, but please don't take that to mean we are not trying to improve player enjoyment within and outside of the player request system.
