Wildshaped Elementals Speaking Different Languages

[Boddynock]

I said sad but ok. Although, when you start baldur's gate 2, you meet talking clay golems, when the monster manual says they can't speak lul. Is there any indication in the comic that the heroes understand what he's saying? Can you provide the next page ?

Moving the goalpost fallacy, verbatim. Stop trolling.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts)

[WookieWarlord]

You can clearly see them reacting to the elemental's words on that page, as well as at the top of the next one:

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It's hard to have a constructive debate when you refuse make a single concession.

[Maximvs]

No worries, my lawful neutral gnome scholar friend. No need to apply the letter of the law that way... beside, it's not fair to call for dnd laws and rules alone in a thread where you ask for a -popular- vote.

They react, but not necessarily because they understood what the elemental just said. They don't reply back anything indicating comprehension. On the second page you posted, he reacts to the arm of a big lizard about to smack his friend, or him, or her? ... on the head. Do you have another page? In comics, funky bubbles can mean things, like an accent, or ... a different language.

[Akroma666]

You guys have been warned to keep things civil. If the mod staff senses any unrest from this thread, we will be locking it for 24 hours. No one wants that..
I know both parties have rather heated arguments and good points, but at this point its been taken to a vote. Let's let the community decide and just take a breather please.

[WookieWarlord]

Those are the only two pages featuring my friend Jogaoh in elemental form. I believe it is very reasonable interpreted as:

1. That sly dog Jogaoh uses the gem to return to his true form. Our hero just happens to coincidentally finish his sentence for him ("The true being that I was..." "A fire elemental").

2. The heroes try and fail to use the same gem for their own purpose, but are surprised when that sneaky not-dwarf Jogaoh interjects and tells them it won't work a second time!

3. Our heroes stare in shock at the revelation the wise Jogaoh has cast down upon them, staring at him as he explains. They also throw aside the gem, would they have known it couldn't function again after such cursory examination, if not for the great Jogaoh's words?

4. "Than the guardian returns to life [...]" "LI--". 'LIFE?!' seems to be the most reasonable explanation of what the heroes responded, now in battle against the heretofore believed to be inanimate statue of the basilisk forced upon them by the crafty Jogaoh. There is no character in this comic who's name begins with "Li", so it can't be a warning to the lady being struck. (How dare you imply our dear Vajra is a male??). Believe me I checked.

Thanks for making me type this.

[Maximvs]

Hm. I agree the gem tossing and the Li -- Lies! or Life, indicates barely enough. It seems you've really found a talking elemental. Wow. Color me impressed. You did provide something. It's flimsy, it can also be considered non cannon, but it's something.

The book is in 1989. Second edition started in 1989 as well, but the monstrous manual second edition is 1993. It seems this fire elemental is based on the advanced dungeon and dragon first edition. Many things changed between editions, like how zombies used to eat brains in the first edition.

Advanced second edition says "Like all common elementals, fire elementals rarely speak on the Prime Material plane, though their voices can be heard in the crackle and hiss of a large fire." without telling us which tongue they talk. I can't even find the first edition thing.

Edit : Yeah, the first edition doesn't even mention any languages at all. The change between first, or second and 3.5 edition might very well reflect a change, which means you'd have to provide a 3.5 valid example imo.

[WookieWarlord]

No problem my friend. Here is an Orglash elemental, featured in none other than NWN2 Mask of the Betrayer, 3.5E D&D. Speaking common.

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"An orglash, or ice spirit, is a kind of air elemental native to the colder parts of Rashemen."

Sure it's not one of the types of elementals that players can wildshape into, but there also isn't any sort of indication that the orglash is in any way outstanding for it's ability to speak the common tongue compared to other elementals.

[DM Theophanies]

I checked first edition monster manual, it didn't really say much about their language but called elementals stupid a number of times. Here is what I collected for the discussion DM side, since a good portion of it is missing from this conversation. Color and italics added for emphasis. With that I won't really get involved in this conversation other than to say that I havn't found any changes from second to 3.5 with regards to elemental anatomy.

Monster Manual 3.5 Page 95 - 98

Air elementals speak Auran, though they rarely choose to do so. The voice of an air elemental sounds like the high-pitched screech of a tornado or the low moan of a midnight storm.

Earth elementals speak Terran but rarely choose to do so. An earth elemental's voice sounds like an echo in a deep tunnel, the rumbling of an earthquake, or the grinding of plates of stone.

Fire elementals speak Ignan though they rarely choose to do so. When one speaks, its voice sounds like the crackle and hiss of a great fire.

Water elementals speak Aquan but rarely choose to do so. When one speaks, its voice sounds like the crashing of waves on a rocky shore or the howls of an ocean gale.


Manual of the Planes Pages 180-184
Paraelemental - A paraelemental is a synthesis of two elemental forces within a single elemental creature.

Ice paraelementals speak Aquan and Auran. Their voices have a serene, tinkling quality at odds with their fearsome apperance.

Magma paraelementals live on the Elemental Planes of Fire and Earth. Accordingly, they speak both Ignan and Terran in low, rumbling voices.

Ooze paraelementals speak Terran and Aquan in bubbling tones.

Smoke paraelementals speak Ignan and Auran in hissing, crackling voices.


Second edition Monstrous Manual:

The common air elemental appears as an amorphous, shifting cloud when it answers its summons to the Prime Material plane. They rarely speak, but their language can be heard in the high-pitched shriek of a tornado or the low moan of a midnight storm.

It has a cold, expressionless face, and its two eyes sparkle like brilliant, multifaceted gems. Though it has a mouth-like opening in its face, an earth elemental will rarely speak. Their voices can be heard in the silence of deep tunnels, the rumblings of earthquakes, and the
grinding of stone on stone.

The only facial features of a fire elemental are two large glowing patches of brilliant blue fire, which seem to function as eyes for the elemental. Like all common elementals, fire elementals rarely speak on the Prime Material plane, though their voices can be heard in the crackle and hiss of a large fire.

Two orbs of deep green peer out of the front of the wave and serve the elemental as eyes. Like all other common elementals, water elemental rarely speak on the Prime Material Plane, but their voices can be heard in the crashing of waves on rocky shores and the
howl of an ocean gale.

[Maximvs]

In which lore book can these be found? let me check... Edit : And orglash only speaks Auran ( unapprocheable east 3.5 ). Can't say I'm surprised there. It seems your NWN example is a lore mistake, just like the talking golems when you start baldur's gate 2, in John Irenicus' dungeon.

[Nemni]

In my humble opinion the “pro-elemental-speak” camp has more convincing argument/sources. There seems to be elementals that speak other languages than their native one, there seems to be elementals that directly speak common and Obsidian seems to believe it as well. Most elementals, even the smart ones, just don’t seem to have any desire to actually do so.

[kellendril]

Please, folks. Keep this civil. I've asked once already. Agree to disagree, but remember, its just a game, and in the end it doesn't really matter if the elementals can talk or not.


In my non-moderator opinion, its a personal decision. I don't honestly care if people want to play talking elementals, but my characters will react to them as I see fit ICly. I think that is ultimately the only equitable solution to this debate, really. Play the game how you want to play it, and if someone else's rp rubs you the wrong way, find a way to not RP with them. I do it all the time in game, because I find there are a few characters I really don't like to RP with.

[Moltrazahn]

Ill leave my opinion on these many recent topics in the polls, Let the poll (and people) do the intended choice....

As for whatever anyone else has to say on these (many) matters of late, I think ill just copypaste this in as an explanation to it all.

[Maximvs]

Why don't you replace "magic" with "alien" ? It would also explain everything LOL

[Moltrazahn]

Why don't you replace "magic" with "alien" ? It would also explain everything LOL

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[Boddynock]

@ "DM Theophanies"

The problem with the citations you provided is that an explanation of what a creature CAN do is not the same as evidence proving what it CANNOT do. This is especially true when you consider Flasmix's supplemental findings in the WotC Archives and the material discussed in Savage Species.

The combination of your citations clearly stating that elementals CAN speak, combined with the WotC archive explaining that creatures capable of speech must have a functioning vocal apparatus makes your post about the facial features of an elemental irrelevant. According to the rules, speech requires a functioning vocal apparatus, according to the rules an elemental can speak, therefore it must have a functioning vocal apparatus; whether or not we understand how it works is irrelevant. In addition, WotC states that a creature, after having been determined to have the capacity to form speech, may speak any language it can process with it's mental faculties. In the case of a shapechanged druid, this includes ALL languages it currently knows.

As internet polls have a reputation for not being 100% accurate or reliable, I am simply going to ask the DM team to redact, or at least reconsider, this ruling, bearing in mind the overwhelming physical evidence we have provided and weighing the physical evidence against the value of public opinion (also bearing in mind that it seems that approximately half the public opinion lies on the same side as all the physical evidence).

Frankly, I can't even see why this discussion is ongoing. The DMs already admitted that they made the decision with nothing to go on, and picked what they thought was best (Which is exactly what they are supposed to do in that situation). But that situation has changed. Now we have provided citations that explain exactly what WotC's intent is, provided an example in Savage Species about how you can have an elemental speak any language while following the rules, and even provided an obscure (though still important) example or two of elementals speaking common (which was also requested). Every request for proof or an example requested has now been provided, and while the staff is under no obligation to reverse it's decision, we are still asking you to consider it. Thank you for your consideration.