Wildshaped Elementals Speaking Different Languages

[DM Echo]

@ "DM Theophanies"

The problem with the citations you provided is that an explanation of what a creature CAN do is not the same as evidence proving what it CANNOT do. This is especially true when you consider Flasmix's supplemental findings in the WotC Archives and the material discussed in Savage Species.

The combination of your citations clearly stating that elementals CAN speak, combined with the WotC archive explaining that creatures capable of speech must have a functioning vocal apparatus makes your post about the facial features of an elemental irrelevant. According to the rules, speech requires a functioning vocal apparatus, according to the rules an elemental can speak, therefore it must have a functioning vocal apparatus; whether or not we understand how it works is irrelevant. In addition, WotC states that a creature, after having been determined to have the capacity to form speech, may speak any language it can process with it's mental faculties. In the case of a shapechanged druid, this includes ALL languages it currently knows.

As internet polls have a reputation for not being 100% accurate or reliable, I am simply going to ask the DM team to redact, or at least reconsider, this ruling, bearing in mind the overwhelming physical evidence we have provided and weighing the physical evidence against the value of public opinion (also bearing in mind that it seems that approximately half the public opinion lies on the same side as all the physical evidence).

Frankly, I can't even see why this discussion is ongoing. The DMs already admitted that they made the decision with nothing to go on, and picked what they thought was best (Which is exactly what they are supposed to do in that situation). But that situation has changed. Now we have provided citations that explain exactly what WotC's intent is, provided an example in Savage Species about how you can have an elemental speak any language while following the rules, and even provided an obscure (though still important) example or two of elementals speaking common (which was also requested). Every request for proof or an example requested has now been provided, and while the staff is under no obligation to reverse it's decision, we are still asking you to consider it. Thank you for your consideration.

One thing you don't notice though.. Is the Living Holocaust actual seems to prove that elementals are incapable of speech. Living Holocaust can cast spells that have verbal components only, druids in elemental form can not, as it is stated many times, druids lose all ability to cast -all- spells unless they take the appropriate feats.

Living Holocaust also contain demonic spirits.. and as we know.. spirits can speak...

Also.. We do and are still discussing elemental's ability to speak.. And I have actually reach out out to an outside community to try to get their information on the matter.. The topic isn't closed and these things do weigh on the decision.

[Maximvs]

On one side, there's a lot of insinuations indicating that elementals speaks by making weird noises, but nothing direct, and on the other, there's two lines of lore in an obscure book that would be more convincing were it two pages of lore, and a few examples that are just lore mistakes.

[DM Theophanies]

@ "DM Theophanies"

The problem with the citations you provided is that an explanation of what a creature CAN do is not the same as evidence proving what it CANNOT do. This is especially true when you consider Flasmix's supplemental findings in the WotC Archives and the material discussed in Savage Species.

The combination of your citations clearly stating that elementals CAN speak, combined with the WotC archive explaining that creatures capable of speech must have a functioning vocal apparatus makes your post about the facial features of an elemental irrelevant. According to the rules, speech requires a functioning vocal apparatus, according to the rules an elemental can speak, therefore it must have a functioning vocal apparatus; whether or not we understand how it works is irrelevant. In addition, WotC states that a creature, after having been determined to have the capacity to form speech, may speak any language it can process with it's mental faculties. In the case of a shapechanged druid, this includes ALL languages it currently knows.

Let me quote what the text actually says as there seems to be some disconnect between your interpritation and what it actually says.

You retain your ability to speak if your assumed form has that ability.

Speech is a natural ability (see Part One); however speech has a mental aspect (your brain's ability to handle language) and a physical aspect (working vocal apparatus). You have to have both to speak in an assumed form. Furthermore, your assumed form must be able to speak naturally. If you assume the form of a creature that cannot speak or use language during the normal course of its life, you still lose the ability to speak. This distinction doesn't often come up with the alter self spell (because it doesn't let you assume a form with a type different than your own), but it can with other polymorph effects.

Now, first off, what Flamix and yourself are referring to is an outdated document on polymorphing. It is using alter self as a template for polymorphing when there is an updated series called "Polymorphing Revisited" by the same author. This updated series looks at how alternate form as the new template. You can find the start of it here:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp? ... /20060502a

Anyway, even if we consider the outdated version (most of what you are using isn't found in the updated version) it says you must have a physical aspect, a working vocal apparatus. It does not dictate what that functioning vocal apparatus is. For elementals it is likely the combination of their form producing noises (given how each language is described) especially given that many of the elementals do not have functioning mouths. It's completely relevant especially when you demand evidence on what a creature cannot do. It's evidence an elemental cannot speak with a mouth. That's not to say humanoids cannot produce similar sounds with their mouths, it only limits the scope of what sounds can be produced in the elemental form.

In addition, WotC states that a creature, after having been determined to have the capacity to form speech, may speak any language it can process with it's mental faculties. In the case of a shapechanged druid, this includes ALL languages it currently knows.

Prove it? Where is that in the document?

As internet polls have a reputation for not being 100% accurate or reliable, I am simply going to ask the DM team to redact, or at least reconsider, this ruling, bearing in mind the overwhelming physical evidence we have provided and weighing the physical evidence against the value of public opinion (also bearing in mind that it seems that approximately half the public opinion lies on the same side as all the physical evidence).

We already are reviewing the ruling, as Echo has stated.

Frankly, I can't even see why this discussion is ongoing. The DMs already admitted that they made the decision with nothing to go on, and picked what they thought was best (Which is exactly what they are supposed to do in that situation).

False. We stated there was no direct solid answer in the lore so we used what was available to point to the answer.

But that situation has changed. Now we have provided citations that explain exactly what WotC's intent is, provided an example in Savage Species about how you can have an elemental speak any language while following the rules, and even provided an obscure (though still important) example or two of elementals speaking common (which was also requested). Every request for proof or an example requested has now been provided, and while the staff is under no obligation to reverse it's decision, we are still asking you to consider it. Thank you for your consideration.

We are reviewing the information for its relevancy in the request.

[Flasmix]

One thing you don't notice though.. Is the Living Holocaust actual seems to prove that elementals are incapable of speech. Living Holocaust can cast spells that have verbal components only, druids in elemental form can not, as it is stated many times, druids lose all ability to cast -all- spells unless they take the appropriate feats.

Yeah, they lose all spell casting ability in ANIMAL form for standard D&D and for everything for NWN2.

Let's take a look at the key notes here in the Wildshape ability according to the SRD.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape

At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.

Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.

The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.

A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)

The key things to take away here is;
1) The spell functions as the Alternate Form ability
2) It plainly states that the Druid loses her ability to speak while in ANIMAL FORM. It doesn't say Elemental. Wildshape is NOT just for Animals. Thus, your Living Holocaust and the Elemental Druid should be able to cast spells with verbal components.

Now, to respond to DM Theophanies concerns;
I took a few lines from the Polymorphing Revisited section but I'll go into more detail here about it.

If you read the Wildshape ability, it says it 'Functions as the Alternate Form special ability' which just so happens, the revisted polymorph section goes into great detail explaining. Take a look at page two; http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp? ... /20060509a

You want to read the quote on spellcasting;

A creature in an assumed form retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form.

Nevertheless, the creature must be able to speak intelligibly while in its assumed form to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.

Looking back at the full description of Wild Shape and comparing it to this line, there is nothing that says a Druid in Elemental form cannot cast spells. It points, once again, to the fact that it can because
1) Elementals can speak according to their monster manual entries.
2) The Wildshape entry specifically says that a Druid cannot cast spells in ANIMAL form, not Elemental form or plant form (As a Treant can cast spells)

Outside sources confirm that Elementals speak;
Player asking for low level options for wild shaped druid to speak as higher levels can go elemental or treant; http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread ... wild-shape

A guy asking what wild shaped forms can speak, while it's a pathfinder forum they go into the RAW definition; http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q9ds?What- ... rally-talk

The key section is near the bottom;

RAW is if a creature has a language, unless something specifically says otherwise, it can speak any languages it takes the time or has the intel to learn.

So FotD, Giants, Elem Body, by RAW, use any language you've got when in those forms. It's part of the you naturally know how to use the form that comes with the spell. [Magically knowing how to use the elementals voice is no different than magically knowing how you're using a tail as a dragon]

Animals or insects, you're speechless without a feat. ( Per the note in RAW about "normal member of the animal species", so no talking parrots for example)

[DM Echo]

Yeah, they lose all spell casting ability in ANIMAL form for standard D&D and for everything for NWN2.

Let's take a look at the key notes here in the Wildshape ability according to the SRD.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape

At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities.

A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form.

A druid being being unable to speak anything other than the languages of creatures it takes the forum of is a normal part of the wild shape ability..

And druids can't cast spells while in wildshape..

Likewise, her lack of a humanlike voice means she cannot cast spells with verbal components or activate command word items. In the same manner, the lack of appropriate appendages may prevent her from using manufactured weapons and magic items. If the usability of a particular spell or item is in doubt, the DM makes the decision.

[DM Echo]

Outside sources confirm that Elementals speak;
Player asking for low level options for wild shaped druid to speak as higher levels can go elemental or treant; http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread ... wild-shape

A guy asking what wild shaped forms can speak, while it's a pathfinder forum they go into the RAW definition; http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q9ds?What- ... rally-talk

When I said outside sources.. I meant the writers of the D&D PHBs.. not another forum.

[Flasmix]

Again Echo, you are quoting a section that says the Druid cannot speak in Animal form. Let me say that word a few times. Animal. Animal. Animal.

A druid being being unable to speak anything other than the languages of creatures it takes the forum of is a normal part of the wild shape ability..

And druids can't cast spells while in wildshape..

It doesn't say that at all. Where is that restriction in regards to Elementals? I just see animals.

I linked to two key points earlier that you disregarded completely.
1) Wildshape says it's the same as Alternate Form, aside from a few differences. The one thing wildshape says specifically is that they can't cast spells in ANIMAL form because they can't speak.
2) Alternate Form says that a spellcaster retains their casting ability if they can speak and perform somantic components. A Druid in Fire Elemental form can cast spells with verbal components only

[Nyeleni]

this from a pathfinder forum 3.5

3.5e
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape

A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form

So, again, the 3.5 Druid can't speak while in Animal form.

At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.

Elemental Form does note that it applies "the normal effects of Wild Shape". I would read "the normal effects" as covering the duration, HP regeneration, and gear melding; the inability to speak seems to be specific to Animal Form.

Conclusion
As I read them, RAW would allow a Druid to speak any languages she knows normally while Wild Shaped into an Elemental, but that Wild Shaping would not grant the elemental's native tongue.

And I agree with this conclusion.

[WookieWarlord]

In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities.

You could argue that one of the extraordinary abilities of elementals is to be able to speak languages (including their native ones) with no mouths etc. :p

[Maximvs]

No side has a definitive quote that dispels any doubt. Whenever something like that happens, the DM decides by filling the blanks.

[DM Echo]

It doesn't say that at all. Where is that restriction in regards to Elementals? I just see animals.

I linked to two key points earlier that you disregarded completely.
1) Wildshape says it's the same as Alternate Form, aside from a few differences. The one thing wildshape says specifically is that they can't cast spells in ANIMAL form because they can't speak.
2) Alternate Form says that a spellcaster retains their casting ability if they can speak and perform somantic components. A Druid in Fire Elemental form can cast spells with verbal components only

Though the druid retains any spells she previously carried,
her new form may not permit her to use them.
Unless the chosen form is one with prehensile hands
(such as a monkey or an ape) or some other manipulative
appendage, the druid may not be able to manipulate material
components and focuses for spells—even if those
are not melded into her new form. Likewise, her lack of
a humanlike voice means she cannot cast spells with
verbal components or activate command word items. In
the same manner, the lack of appropriate appendages
may prevent her from using manufactured weapons and
magic items. If the usability of a particular spell or item
is in doubt, the DM makes the decision.

This doesn't say anything about being specific to elementals or animals. It is a very broad statement saying druids can not cast while shifted. It is a separate paragraph from anything associated with the animal form specifically. It is unfortunate that I quoted it where I did and made it seem like it was associated with the animal form's ability to speak.

But no, it doesn't say in elemental.. no more than does it say that elementals can speak.. Otherwise this would be a very short conversation. It does, however, say that when shifting into elemental form they are subject to the normal effects of wild shape. That would mean that they are also limited to the sounds that specific creature can make. Where we part ways is in defining what noises a elemental can make.

My evidence I have posted so far is that, Many creatures in the elemental planes do speak common, elementals have an int high enough to speak common, infact higher than many other creatures who are capable of speaking common, yet they themselves do not speak the language. The sound of an elemental's voice is clearly written out and does not sound like anything that would be capable of producing sounds that are associated with typical human speech. Druids are incapable of casting while shifted, which is not indicated to be directly associated with animal forms, yet they should be able to at least cast spells with verbal components if they could speak in a voice that produced the tones and sounds of a human's voice.

No side has a definitive quote that dispels any doubt. Whenever something like that happens, the DM decides by filling the blanks.

And yes.. precisely.. That is why the debate continues and why it is left to us to make the end ruling.. TBH, personally.. I am just looking to see how many people -want- elementals to be capable of speech before I place my vote on if they should or not on our server.. Which is what I believe this poll is for, since no evidence strictly stating anything definitive can be presented by either side.

[WookieWarlord]

No side has a definitive quote that dispels any doubt. Whenever something like that happens, the DM decides by filling the blanks.

Or, and I know the DMs were specifically asked for a ruling, it could just be redacted and left entirely up to the players. Wouldn't that satisfy the most people?

[Maximvs]

Or, and I know the DMs were specifically asked for a ruling, it could just be redacted and left entirely up to the players. Wouldn't that satisfy the most people?

Britney Spears and Justin Bieber satisfies the musical needs of a lot of people too.

Please try to imagine what it is to be an elemental, and how they were made. Let's put the letter of the dnd law aside for a moment.

First, what is an outsider? To me, an outsider is someone akin to a martian from Mars coming down on planet earth. He pops out of his round UFO and we see... a skinny humanoid with a big head in a suit and a laser pistol in hand. That, my friend, is an outsider. Not necessarily a "magical" being, I know casting a mordenkainen's disjunction doesn't kill an elemental, or hinder it in any way. Who's to say they have more magic in them than conventional humans, because the weave is in all of us? They may be more like a life form we do not understand, we do not know how it eats, reproduces or how it lives its life. Maybe it's muscles are made of fire stuff. Humans drilled deep in the ocean floor to find strange bacteria that eats and lives off dangerous acids that would kill 99% of other life forms. They never made a lore book with anatomical details of elementals like they did for demons. Some look more like us than others... Some, are extremely, extremely strange and alien. Please replace the word "magical" with "alien" for a moment.

Elementals were probably created by the elemental planes themselves, like demons were. They live in their plane, generation over generation, for eons. Let's pick one in particular, Bob the fire elemental. Bob and his 100 000 year ancestor lineage never spoke any language other than their own alien language for 100 000 years, faerun standards. Elementals only care about their own elements ; it's all they do, all their lives. Bob doesn't care about anything that isn't fire related. Many of Bob's kin spend their whole lives, and their ancestors priors, just basking in eternal flames of the fire elemental plane. Demons and devils however, evolved a lot more languages because it's part of their innate job to tempt mortals. They "evolved" that way. If we slap the theory of evolution on that, I highly doubt a druid that suddenly shifts into Bob would have the "vocal" capacity to talk any other kind of normal, prime material plane language.

Having every single elemental talk only their elemental tongue of imitation of crashing waves and burning fire and such for hundreds of thousands of years is to me a very strong indication that they can't really talk any other language properly.

[WookieWarlord]

I actually agree with you Maximvs, and in my minds eye it's like you describe.

However I also accept that everyone imagines things in their own way, and my 'artistic vision' certainly doesn't have more merit than anyone elses. Therefore if other people strongly believe that it should be another way, and if the setting/lore doesn't contradict them, it's seriously worth considering relaxing the language restriction.

Actually I'm quite amused by how impassioned a debate on such a niche point can be.

[Maximvs]

However I also accept that everyone imagines things in their own way, and my 'artistic vision' certainly doesn't have more merit than anyone elses.

Indeed. But if both sides cannot provide definitive lore, wouldn't it be better to side with the most artistic idea?