Minimum Lvl Requirement gone?

[Thorsson]

2) I agreed that it was an arbitrary, out of character rule that had no real basis in Dungeons & Dragons

This is somewhat disingenuous. In PnP a DM will not be giving +4 items to level 1 characters.

It depends on the campaign the DM was running.

Well if he was running a monty haul campaign then maybe. Otherwise he'd almost certainly restrict the items and/or put barriers up for their use. People expect to progress, and items are part of that.

I equally reject that it doesn't matter to your character, because you can always not use higher level items. Firstly you would have to work out whether each item was OK for your character or not; not immersion breaking at all... Secondly if you're in a group using your +1 Sword of Feebleness, while someone from QC is using their +4 Flaming Sword of Evil Slaying (etc. etc. etc.) how do you roleplay that? Thirdly, how could the staff not think that this was something that should have been discussed in the community before implementation? Plenty of things have been asked for; can't recall this ever being one of them.

[Calodan]

.

[Garn Greymoon]

Why hasn't anyone asked the question where is that level 1 getting that +4 item from? It's not like a level 1 is starting with tens of thousands of gold.

If we are talking about twinking my opinion on that is that's close to a form of cheating and deserves a ban.

[Maecius]

Currently there are no rules against transferring gear from one PC to another in an out of character fashion -- and, as I understand it, it's actually a very common practice.

At the very least, I've fixed quite a lot of people who lost all their gear in campfires when they were trying to RCR into a new character. (Despite my strongly encouraging everyone not to do this: http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=50681&start=15)

I've encouraged the DMs to consider reviewing the server rules over the summer, based on another thread, so that could change in the future. But I expect we'll want to get persistent storage in place before we do change the rule, if we do change the rule.

There's really nothing preventing an experienced server veteran from power leveling from level 1 to low epics as it stands, item level restrictions or no item level restrictions. I was able to do it over the course of a very long weekend when I was a younger player (back when we had to "RCR" our characters by deleting them entirely and starting over from level 1 if we made a mistake in our builds ) -- and although the spawns were admittedly less balanced back then, and there were much easier "grind spots," the fact that I couldn't use +4 items right away didn't really slow me down.

The change really only impacts newer players and players who are taking it slow, in my opinion, enjoying the setting and exploring the dungeons. And the only impact it has on them is that they can choose to use any item they find as long as they meet its alignment/class prerequisites, or have the appropriate investment in Use Magic Device.

In my opinion this change makes it a little bit easier to get through the low levels, particularly for newer players. I don't personally think this change dramatically affects the veteran players, or dramatically changes the nature of the game or setting in any measurable way outside of quality of life for newer players and full rerolls.

[Xanfyrst]

I think the main issue most players have is that the common people of BG wasn't even asked what they think about it. I mean, it's a rather big thing and I know BG isn't a democracy... but listening to people's feedback has never been a bad thing.

[Maecius]

That's understandable, and I absolutely agree that community feedback is critical. This thread itself is a community commentary thread, and it will remain open as long as people have things to add to it and it remains civil. So we're not not listening to feedback.

But we don't, and we won't, make a habit of delaying development by asking for full community consensus on every change the development team or DM team wants to make. Please don't expect this. To do so would cripple our development process and drastically increase the workload of our staff (it's a lot of work to manage the forums and actively interface with the whole community -- it's taken up almost all of my Saturday between the forums and my PMs). But as stated earlier, we can probably try to give a little more advance notice in the future, and allow for more public commentary and general awareness:

Maybe even a "development pipeline" type thread to let folks know what the developers are currently working on (with no promise of a release if it doesn't pass review)? -- I'll run it through the developers to see if that's something they'd be comfortable maintaining.

Part of the disconnect here, I suppose, is that I don't really think QC or Rasael did see this change as a significant change that would affect "everyone." I personally don't see it as a big change, myself, and I didn't stress at all over its being implemented (or even expect the response it's received from a handful of players) -- it's super easy to turn on or off (it literally is clicking a single button) and it affects a very small minority of the player population for a pretty limited window of their play time on the server. To me? It just seemed like a simple way to make life a little easier on our newer players, and to save me a good amount of time fixing characters who were occasionally broken by the previous restrictions.

Anyway, I am sorry if this took anyone off-guard, and we can try to increase transparency on development if the developers are able and willing to commit a little time to it. But if anyone's expecting to have a regular and direct role in module development decisions, the best way to have that is to apply to a staff position, where these decisions are actively and regularly made.

Development decisions will probably not be made by community forum poll on a regular basis, and I want to be upfront about that so that nobody expects my becoming admin is going to bring about a "golden age" where everyone has equal say in what happens. I absolutely maintain Luna's position that those who put the most work into the server have the greatest say in its development and storyline, and that's one of the points I very openly sell people on when encouraging them to apply to become QC, or DMs, or developers.

[Steve]

Many an OOC decision of late that changes the framework of the Game, has a role-play consequence, and I question why the Staff is not more sensitive to this.

I do have one final question for the Staff in general on this issue: did you consider how this could effect PvP? It was easily determined a bad form of gaming if a higher level Character trolled a low CR area in order to PvP others, but that a Player could be of equal level but far superior in might and/or magic over others because of use of epic gear, how can a line be drawn between arsehattery and actual RP...just super powered because of twinking gear?

I can see the vision that it seems the "invested" members have, and what they are going for/promising as the New Server, over time. But some aspects lag severely behind, and the actual picture presented is odd jumps forward with no public map for everyone to digest.

EDIT: One more thing: I just realized that 3 out of 4 of my Characters just highly increased in Power because of this change—so many epic items are now easily equip able. What are the RP consequences to that?!? At least, when decisions like this change are made, someone more "invested" could at least give us proles some idea of how our Characters should react to being able to wield the Items of the Gods.

[Grimcheese]

Well if he was running a monty haul campaign then maybe. Otherwise he'd almost certainly restrict the items and/or put barriers up for their use. People expect to progress, and items are part of that.

Still depends on the DM, and what campaign they are running. It may very well be a campaign where progress is based on something else besides item power, and that +10 vorpal sword the nublet has may be as useful as a toothpick in the greater scheme of things.

If a player gets bored because they twinked their babby toon with top-of-the-line gear and are left sitting with a thumb up their butts when it comes to gear progression, then that's their problem.

I equally reject that it doesn't matter to your character, because you can always not use higher level items. Firstly you would have to work out whether each item was OK for your character or not; not immersion breaking at all...

You mean you don't do that before due to item level restrictions? Half the fun I had when gearing newbies back then was trying to remember the minimum level requirement for some of my goodies, since muling was such a chore and I didn't want to flip-flop gear because I didn't remember that +2 Full Plate had ML 5 and now my level 4 character is stuck with a suit of armour he arbitrarily can't wear. Now that was bad for my immersion.

Secondly if you're in a group using your +1 Sword of Feebleness, while someone from QC is using their +4 Flaming Sword of Evil Slaying (etc. etc. etc.) how do you roleplay that?

You roleplay while grinding?

Serious answer: My more pro-grinding character would just be happy to hang back and let the +4 dude do his thing. Maybe even provide (facetious) moral support while at it. She isn't turning down free money!

[Blackman D]

pvp was brought up yea, tho pvp is won by the one with the most experience and knowledge vs being won by just items, and of course some builds are simply stronger than others and items dont matter

someone with a good build and knows what they are doing is likely gonna kill you regardless of what they have, especially if you are someone who doesnt know what you are doing in pvp

[Young Werther]

In PvP they could be rocking +5, flame weapon buffs, careying potions for days and blah blah blah.

I just like the idea a DM can give lowbies nice things now alot.

[Nyeleni]

They always could give nice things to lowbies. The only thing was, that they couldn't use it right away. Which was a good motivator imo.

Personally I miss the item level cap. It was a good indicator for my merchant, for how much I should buy or sell an item.

And I too am not too fond of level 1 chars running around with +4 items.

Anyways, it is not that big a deal. I shall get over it.

[Steve]

Well BMD, I disagree here: a lvl 5 with item restrictions versus a level 5 with tip top gear...my money is on the latter. The difference could literally be 8–10 AC, AB and by far greater DMG, not to mention Items that grant Feats.

[Maecius]

I don't think the "level 1 Rambo" scenario is a very realistic concern. No new player has gear like that, and very few players stay level 1, or even under level 10, for more than a couple of weeks in most cases.

Veteran players, if they decide to reroll instead of RCR, rarely stay under 10 for a full week unless they're pursuing a very hardcore roleplay character (such as those who occasionally will only accept XP from the RP XP scripts and DM events and refuse to grind or quest) or lack a lot of time, and then this will only make their lives a little easier when they do receive items that they normally would not be able to utilize.

Moreover, if any player is griefing other players, regardless of their level, it becomes a DM issue and will be handled as a disciplinary matter at that time. Again, not that I expect our epic characters to suddenly reroll low levels and go around destroying our new players with epic gear. It makes zero sense and would likely lead to a quick ban.

Nyeleni, your concern has a little more merit if you were relying on item level restrictions to price your gear, though I'd definitely encourage you to check out Karond's item guide to get a better idea of how to value your items if you haven't already: http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=149&t=18282

The Item Level Restrictions are a largely imperfect guide to determining item value, as the itemvalue.2da file that it references has like zero to do with the actual worth of items on the server to other players (which is why you can sell a terrible item with Spell Resistance 12 or 18 on it and see the vendor trying to sell it back to you for tens of thousands of GP).

[mrm3ntalist]

What are the levels where there is an issue with this change compared with the status that was before? Can someone tell me with an example?

At level 7 one could equip +3items at level 11 +4, at level 16 most epic items at 21 everything.

Are people worried about the 1-6 level characters that can have much higher stats if they have epic items. And isnt the fact that they will have higher skills and better AC allow them to function better when in group with epics?

Is it such a big problem that between levels 7 and 11 one can have +1 on every stat compared to before? From level11 it begins to equate and level21 its all the same.

Arent there any positives with this change? Arent the following some positives?
- There will be no need to grind for that level where you can equip an item
- The gap between low level players and epics, can be broadened, allowing easier adventuring/events with epic characters
- Easier to give DM rewards to RPers that dont try to level fast

If indeed you feel that there are negatives to this change, when you put it all together - pros and cons - where does that leave you?

[Ithilan]

I am of a mind to agree with Nyel here, it was a minor thing, a bit of a charm element and something you were quite used to, it even served as motivation often to aquire that wonderful level where you could utilize a new axe or armor etc.

Other than that I think it is overall very possitive, especially considering that you can put on those regen cloaks at level 1 now and any of them, not having to use the cloak of the diplomat or which one it was that could be used at level 5 only to replace it two levels later with your intended cloak.

And forgive me if it comes of offensively, but are we really debating pvp on low levels? Or PvP in general, how often is it an occurance in your average play time and how often does it have a detrimental impact on your character and RP? I find that bringing it up is nitpicking and the day I start dreading a level 5 in +4 gear with his one attack per round, horrible saving throws and non exsistant hitpoints, im likely playing a pacifist and it wont matter regardless

The only real negative impact I can think is the diminished value in mediocre items that are usually used when leveling up (+2 gear etc.) these will now only have a purpose for newer players and while they are littered all over the auctioneers, they are worth less than the average price now.