Imagine

[chad878262]

Quote:
Now, the harder the sever becomes, the more EDM Favored Souls you will find on the server. Because the harder the server gets, the more you need the blanket immunities, high saves, self healing, with high AB, AC, and Damage output with spontaneous spellcasting.


Could be. Possibly Druids, Bards and Warlocks as well, for similar reasons.

You forgot Wizards, Man at Arms, Paladins, HiPS Archers, Barbarians, Bladesingers of various types, Dwarven Defenders, and I am sure I'm forgetting another half dozen at least.

One thing I have learned (slowly, with the help of @Invoker and others) is player skill really is far more important than build. Using myself as an example, with my STR Bard I tend to die in places where Bards should ROFL-Stomp the bosses and all content. Meanwhile with my sneaky Rogue build I can solo area's that most conventional wisdom is Rogue's simply do not belong and can't survive. My few attempts at true caster wizards have generally met with me being frustrated because, while I understand the building and mechanics, the tactics and strategies (spell economy, movement/positioning, etc.) is not something I have become very good at. For the first couple of years on the server I was frustrated with my inability to do a lot of the content, which resulted in my bard, a couple gishes and some others that ended up as throw-away / RCR bait characters. In the end, I think players become better at the classes with mechanics they most enjoy. To me a 'power build' is nowhere near as important as a player understanding how to make the build they enjoy more powerful. Of course this is all just my experience/opinion and not exactly on topic, other than to state regardless of improved AI for spawns, the best method for survival is to play what you enjoy playing and learn how to take actions against the environment (and other players) to provide your PC with advantages.

[aaron22]

in regards to the recent posts.

i think it is a learn thing. and it stems from enjoyment. you enjoy your hips/roguish builds chad, so you play them more and through tough times with a little more patience. in those tough times you work though the strat needed to overcome your problem. with every problem you solve, you create a library of strat. with this library, you can go places and defeat foes that others cannot. perhaps you are good at developing strats anyway, so that helps a bunch. expansive knowledge of the mobs too help. even running through "problem" zones with other build styles helps you understand what does and doesnt work.

with all that said, really all you do is cycle several strats to overcome everything on the server. if a peramiter is met then you use the strat for that problem to win. another peramiter is countered with another strat. essentially you just cycle the same set of strategies to win and win and win. call that player skill or whatever, but it really is just how big your strategy library is.

if we allow the mobs to evolve then you would need new strats to overcome them. you would always be growing and expanding your library. the right strategy will always win the day. it is not the builds. allowing the mobs to evolve would make you need to expand your library to continue to win, win, win, and win again. you would need to be a better player. not a better builder. the best builds will lose if not played well enough.

[Sun Wukong]

Hmm...I didn't notice that. Been there a few times this week, but my character has very high will save for a warrior, so he is pretty much immune to it: they don't even try, preferring more direct dmg attempts. Do you remember the DC, by any chance?

I think it was the eastern mines, the smaller duerard thrall map with the duergar fortress transition to south, I think.

Now, the DC of the mind blast ability was someting like 24, 25, or 28, if I recall correctly. My build will be able to get his blanket immunity to it, but most of the build's will save increase happens later into the epic levels.

[Steve]

On the "it's all about the Player" aspect: what do you think is the most challenging adventurer-type Build to play to 30 on BGTSCC? That would most test the merit of a Player's ability to progress, and, not beat their head against their keyboard in the attempt.

I put in adventurer-type there because I don't think Commoner is needed to say.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Probably a non hipsing rogue. Wizards are my bread and butter and is all I play these past two years honestly.

[chad878262]

On the "it's all about the Player" aspect: what do you think is the most challenging adventurer-type Build to play to 30 on BGTSCC? That would most test the merit of a Player's ability to progress, and, not beat their head against their keyboard in the attempt.

I put in adventurer-type there because I don't think Commoner is needed to say.

In terms of "real" builds (i.e. not commoner ) I would argue the most difficult is dependent on the individual. Consider the arguments over the years of "M@A needs love!" and "Sneaks are OP!", or everyone's favorite "Nerf FvS and Bard!". The reality is that there are ways a DC Wizard could wreck everything else, but there are also ways that a smart and creative player could wreck a DC Caster (unless played by Invoker, of course... )

Personally, I think the most difficult to play would be anything that has no spells, no UMD, no class abilities and no HiPS. So Fighters without a Rogue or SD Dip and without cross-classing skills, and high-investment Swashbuckler builds, mostly. Even these builds can be successful, but in order to handle certain content you either need UMD or access to someone that can brew and sell certain potions such as Deathward. Simply put, as you get in to the higher level content (epics) mundane classes without access to innate protections/immunities are going to struggle in comparison to those that have them. In a party environment these types can be great damage dealers and tanks, but they need a caster to protect them from certain death.

This is why casters (in general) rule the day... They can protect themselves completely from the environmental enemies. If played intelligently, even when everything goes wrong they have a quick exit strategy to avoid fugue. A 'standard' Fighter lacks this. The most difficult thing about playing HiPS and what I feel brings a player from considering them too weak, to those that seem them and say "OP" is when to use it. An inexperienced and/or unskilled player will just spam HiPS and sneak attacks, and then be shocked when an unseen caster drops a save or X spell or IGMS and they end up in fugue. A more experienced/skilled player will likely not use HiPS in this way, still relying on hit and run tactics to avoid hits as well as ensuring they are not caught unaware by a caster spawning while they are in mid attack sequence. This may take longer, but it allows them to use HiPS defensively so they don't get hit by dispels, high damage spells or save or die spells. Most HiPS builds are the epitome of glass canon, they generally don't reach 300 HP, don't get over ~44 AC without significant consumable use and generally have fortitude and will saves of ~9-15, maybe 20 if they focus on one or the other. So be it getting swarmed in melee by multiple enemies or surprised by a caster, they've no room for error. However, if played well, they can be near untouchable, but not as much as as a well built and well played caster, who has far more room for error. The mundane, non-HiPS melee without UMD though? How do they defend themselves? Sure, many Fighter PRCs can give them really good saves which in conjunction with Steadfast can ensure they need not worry about save or die spells, but there are so many other spells that do not allow a save. Without the ability to use wands they have very little means of protection outside other characters.

TL;DR my opinion is that Fighter and Swashbuckler would be the most difficult in higher level area's. However, the ability to cross-class UMD and dip in to Rogue or other classes makes this moot. Any class can do well, but requires either building to allow for solo play or always grouping up with others.

Also, non-hipsing rogue gets Hide in the Shadows instant activation at 21... A long road and requires even more strategy/planning, but is playable.

[aaron22]

id say a edm ranger build. hard to play. most of the twf builds are pretty hard for me unless it is a def focused one like my swash/due/temp/wm. that one is pretty strong.

wizards and str.dom SF builds are the easiest for me i think. wiz gives me a lot of strat options and the SF build was my 2nd build ever and i learned a lot with it.

[Invoker]

On the "it's all about the Player" aspect: what do you think is the most challenging adventurer-type Build to play to 30 on BGTSCC? That would most test the merit of a Player's ability to progress, and, not beat their head against their keyboard in the attempt.

I put in adventurer-type there because I don't think Commoner is needed to say.

Commoner does not exist for me, so I won't comment on that.

Usually, in games where skill matters the characters (or heroes) that are the most difficult to play are those with the biggest amount of active options: you need excellent execution, quick thinking and game sense to make them work well, and amazing players will destroy the game using them.

That's where you discuss skill floor (the ability to use a character and be effective with it at one's own level) vs skill ceiling (the potential to overcome seemingly impossible odds thanks to amazing plays, despite the fact the character is overall not more powerful than others, just more complex).

In NWN2, no character is weak, but builds are. Purposefully playing with a horrid build isn't a balance concern, of course, but even among viable builds the difference in performance can be quite sensible, at times drastic.

Some base classes have more viable builds, others very few. If, for instance, you go with AoS and say "non-Hipsing Rogue", you could be right...or you could find yourself in the presence of a very solid character like some Rogue/Fighter/Blackguard/Ghost-Faced Killer with decent AC, good saves, good STR and likely either IKD or Shield Slam, Feint and possibly EDM. That character will be strong, and have zero issues to level, defeating Steve's purpose of finding a really hard character to play.

The reason why I like caster Wizard, is the amount of things it can do when you start performing complex plays. According to me, it's the character type with the highest skill ceiling there is in the game.

I don't believe any "adventurer type" fits Steve's bill, unless you build badly.

[Hoihe]

When talking about player strats..


Are we talking about OOC or IC strats?

There's a stark difference in playability of non-HIPS rogues with IC or OOC strats. Funnily enough, if NWN2 had proper mechanics, IC strats would trump OOC.

OOC strat is to open and close a door on an NPC that doesn't learn it needs to stand farther away or bash the door in, despite having the intelligence/strength it needs. I killed minotaurs without ever getting hit by abusing the doors in the minomaze to land sneak attacks and exit combat before being hit again. It, like the blaster method, made me feel dirty for it feels cheating and abuse of A.I. in a purely OOC manner. That trick would work only so long ICly before the door is smashed on your rogue.

On the "it's all about the Player" aspect: what do you think is the most challenging adventurer-type Build to play to 30 on BGTSCC? That would most test the merit of a Player's ability to progress, and, not beat their head against their keyboard in the attempt.

I put in adventurer-type there because I don't think Commoner is needed to say.

Commoner does not exist for me, so I won't comment on that.

Usually, in games where skill matters the characters (or heroes) that are the most difficult to play are those with the biggest amount of active options: you need excellent execution, quick thinking and game sense to make them work well, and amazing players will destroy the game using them.

That's where you discuss skill floor (the ability to use a character and be effective with it at one's own level) vs skill ceiling (the potential to overcome seemingly impossible odds thanks to amazing plays, despite the fact the character is overall not more powerful than others, just more complex).

In NWN2, no character is weak, but builds are. Purposefully playing with a horrid build isn't a balance concern, of course, but even among viable builds the difference in performance can be quite sensible, at times drastic.

Some base classes have more viable builds, others very few. If, for instance, you go with AoS and say "non-Hipsing Rogue", you could be right...or you could find yourself in the presence of a very solid character like some Rogue/Fighter/Blackguard/Ghost-Faced Killer with decent AC, good saves, good STR and likely either IKD or Shield Slam, Feint and possibly EDM. That character will be strong, and have zero issues to level, defeating Steve's purpose of finding a really hard character to play.

The reason why I like caster Wizard, is the amount of things it can do when you start performing complex plays. According to me, it's the character type with the highest skill ceiling there is in the game.

I don't believe any "adventurer type" fits Steve's bill, unless you build badly.

Complex IC or OOC plays?

[Steve]

I would respond to my own question by mostly agreeing with Chad, that a non-UMD, non-caster would have the worse of it, on BGTSCC. This is right to say, I think, because we all know that much content of mobs/Areas has been implemented with the very TOP TIER magic using or empowered Builds.

But much of the metric we can individually and subjectively apply to what is "challenging," is done through what we know how the environment works. For example, with some tweaks to Resting Time Length and availability of Rest Zones, one might soon find the Caster the most challenging to play up through 30, because of the running-out-of-steam (magic) issue...or just the frustration from boredom waiting for that loooooong Rest Timer to tick down...tick...tock...tick...tock.....

I have actually toyed with trying a completely non-buffing Character, a sort of anti-magic type person. I've constructed some builds, and actually, they do seem completely playable, however, they would be rather Item dependent, because simply put, the Server is not balanced toward natural statistics of Builds, but their buffed versions, be it with Items, with magic, or both!

Just as an example: my last build attempt at a total non-buffer, was Monk (6), Duelist (10), Anointed Knight (10), Fighter (4). With the best gear possible currently IG at NPC merchants, one has a max of 52 AC w/ Feats on, 42 AB w/ Feats on, 3 APR for an avg of 98 dmg per round (without crit, which could triple that number if 3 successful crits...and the build does have Imp. Crit! Hi Valefort! ), and Saves of 29/29/29 without any Item bonuses.

So you see, it isn't half bad, but is hardly immune to what Epic Content dishes out, and, in PvP, it wouldn't get very far versus most Builds. As a Challenge? Sure, it would be a good one. Would it be as fun as other Builds that have more ROFL-stomp capacity? Probably not.

[Hoihe]

I would respond to my own question by mostly agreeing with Chad, that a non-UMD, non-caster would have the worse of it, on BGTSCC. This is right to say, I think, because we all know that much content of mobs/Areas has been implemented with the very TOP TIER magic using or empowered Builds.

But much of the metric we can individually and subjectively apply to what is "challenging," is done through what we know how the environment works. For example, with some tweaks to Resting Time Length and availability of Rest Zones, one might soon find the Caster the most challenging to play up through 30, because of the running-out-of-steam (magic) issue...or just the frustration from boredom waiting for that loooooong Rest Timer to tick down...tick...tock...tick...tock.....

I have actually toyed with trying a completely non-buffing Character, a sort of anti-magic type person. I've constructed some builds, and actually, they do seem completely playable, however, they would be rather Item dependent, because simply put, the Server is not balanced toward natural statistics of Builds, but their buffed versions, be it with Items, with magic, or both!

Just as an example: my last build attempt at a total non-buffer, was Monk (6), Duelist (10), Anointed Knight (10), Fighter (4). With the best gear possible currently IG at NPC merchants, one has a max of 52 AC w/ Feats on, 42 AB w/ Feats on, 3 APR for an avg of 98 dmg per round (without crit, which could triple that number if 3 successful crits...and the build does have Imp. Crit! Hi Valefort! ), and Saves of 29/29/29 without any Item bonuses.

So you see, it isn't half bad, but is hardly immune to what Epic Content dishes out, and, in PvP, it wouldn't get very far versus most Builds. As a Challenge? Sure, it would be a good one. Would it be as fun as other Builds that have more ROFL-stomp capacity? Probably not.

I wonder how many issues would be solved if mobs stopped being balanced to stop tanker trucks with bling. Sure, tanker trucks will be able to bulldoze content, but the entry level would be much lower.

[chad878262]

I wonder how many issues would be solved if mobs stopped being balanced to stop tanker trucks with bling. Sure, tanker trucks will be able to bulldoze content, but the entry level would be much lower.

I would just like to call out that mobs are not balanced to stop tanker trucks. They are balanced to challenge an appropriate CR PARTY, not against solo play. If you are Solo, it's quite easy to go somewhere ~4 CR below your level, which even with dynamic spawns would be 2 CR below your level at the highest.

The issue is everyone thinks in terms of solo play, but in D&D balance is determined around playing with a party of 3-5 adventurers. There are very few area's (like maybe 2) that are overly difficult when you have 3-5 PC's of appropriate levels teamed up.

[Hoihe]

I wonder how many issues would be solved if mobs stopped being balanced to stop tanker trucks with bling. Sure, tanker trucks will be able to bulldoze content, but the entry level would be much lower.

I would just like to call out that mobs are not balanced to stop tanker trucks. They are balanced to challenge an appropriate CR PARTY, not against solo play. If you are Solo, it's quite easy to go somewhere ~4 CR below your level, which even with dynamic spawns would be 2 CR below your level at the highest.

The issue is everyone thinks in terms of solo play, but in D&D balance is determined around playing with a party of 3-5 adventurers. There are very few area's (like maybe 2) that are overly difficult when you have 3-5 PC's of appropriate levels teamed up.

Mobs still have HP to counter WM/FBs or other trucks, mobs still have saves to counter pure caster stat casters, mobs still have the AB to hit people with full +3 gear reliably at level 15 unless they go turtle-mode.

[Steve]

I agree with Chad that my experience has been no Area or mobs are difficult or impossible against a balanced Group.

People solo for many reasons, but probably the simplest of those reasons is that it is often just easier to go it alone!

Imagine...a BGTSCC where it is IMPOSSIBLE to clear an Area and especially a Boss, without a 3–5 member balanced adventuring Party. Then, literally, one could not think in solo terms!

But what is a balanced party, really, when a Cleric can get as many attacks as a Fighter, a Wizard can transform into a super tank, a rogue has no doors/traps that only she can pass the group through, and bards can damage more than any melee can?

It is actually the greatest challenge of a Builder to come close to providing an adequate Area and mobs that through diversity and programming, could consistently and uniquely challenge the uber single Build, and least, a balanced group.

It is again the limits of this NWN2 game and engine, where too much power available for the single Build skews the possibility of adequate challenge, especially when the Encounters are not tailored, but general. Generalities weaken.

[Hoihe]

I agree with Chad that my experience has been no Area or mobs are difficult or impossible against a balanced Group.

People solo for many reasons, but probably the simplest of those reasons is that it is often just easier to go it alone!

Imagine...a BGTSCC where it is IMPOSSIBLE to clear an Area and especially a Boss, without a 3–5 member balanced adventuring Party. Then, literally, one could not think in solo terms!

But what is a balanced party, really, when a Cleric can get as many attacks as a Fighter, a Wizard can transform into a super tank, a rogue has no doors/traps that only she can pass the group through, and bards can damage more than any melee can?

It is actually the greatest challenge of a Builder to come close to providing an adequate Area and mobs that through diversity and programming, could consistently and uniquely challenge the uber single Build, and least, a balanced group.

It is again the limits of this NWN2 game and engine, where too much power available for the single Build skews the possibility of adequate challenge, especially when the Encounters are not tailored, but general. Generalities weaken.

Problem with parties is the requirement of 3-5 people being of equal level, or within 3 levels of each other, with personalities that work together, playing at the same hour with enough time to do something, and their players having the same preferences.

Now, you can encounter such groups if you play frequently easily enough. However, to play frequently you need something to engage you. As much as I like Every Day RP, doing it solo is bland. I can combat the blandness by doing it on forums, but then I remove myself from the game so I can't encounter anyone. Best way to encounter others is to go out and do things, which requires solo capabilities.

The only things you have right now when going out to do things (without other people around) is combat and gathering those few ingredients. You can explore, but that requires combat.