Monthly 100% RCR

[chad878262]

We do not want to encourage constantly building alts to test mechanics over RP, certainly. However, free RCR brings it's own major issues, some of which include:

1. No one ever experiences low level gameplay again. Anyone new to the server ends up quitting because the CR1-10 dungeons are empty (or only populated with level 30's speed running to get gold/loot with no risk). These are some of the best, most fun dungeons on the server, would be a shame for them to see no use outside loot running.

2. RP and immersion of other players gets impacted by some players who (with no 'cost' associated) are constantly changing builds. "Johny, as the party Wizard, we'll need you to ward us against the enemies magics and help to control the battlefield." Johny - "Uh, yeah guys, but the thing is I'm not a Wizard... I am a Barbarian." Rest of party - ". . ."

3. There is power creep created by an influx of level 30 builds that only become playable/enjoyable at level 25+. As someone who has played a Sneak Attack based character that gained HiPS at 30 and a Wizard/Eldritch Knight/Assassin/Arcane Trickster that didn't get HiPS until level 24 and didn't get level 9 spells until level 26, I can tell you I specifically do not punish myself any longer by playing builds that are super strong later in epics, but a pain to play until then. Some of these aren't really OP compared to more traditional builds, but others are a straight power up vs. more traditional builds playable 1-30.

4. Even more than today, the server becomes focused on level 30 gameplay. Newer players are never included in events or server plots and, as with one, we end up with no new players.

Full RCR is essentially like saying 'anyone who has played here for a year + can start all their characters at 30. However, for any newbies, you will need to grind to 30 at least once, mostly solo since everyone else is 30. Good luck' If it really came to this point I would argue for just allowing players to set their level anywhere from 1-30 and level up whenever they want, completely doing away with any XP Gaining mechanics. And I have zero desire to do that. RCR for free up to 10 is fine. It gives players an opportunity to change lower level builds as they play if they find a glaring mistake or just find that they do not enjoy either the mechanical gameplay or RP as much as they thought they would. Even 11-20 the penalties increase slowly enough that players can slowly acclimate to the idea of more costly penalties for RCR.

I know some will take this as a slight in the 'Who are you to tell us what we will or won't enjoy', but I'm going to say it anyway. Be careful what you wish for. It may sound like if you could just RCR for free at any level you would find the one build you enjoy and be able to stick with that character and RP forever (or a long time). However, what will happen for many is just more of the same, constantly changing builds, spending more time 'tweaking' or outright switching to new characters. Which will make it very difficult for anyone to maintain consistency in the story/RP in game. Even if 50% of the server RCR's in to one build and plays a long time, the other 50% that they play with are constantly changing, causing difficulties in their own play. Free RCR would cause more problems than it solves, so unless and until we have a package of changes that warrant it, I prefer that it is left as is.

[MadSeer]

What if there was another tool to remedy the problems we're talking about when we advocate for 100% RCR? I agree with the concerns about the negative impact of RCR, but would it be possible to create a limited releveling tool that would fix the issues we're talking about?

There could be an option that allows you to just relevel a fixed number of levels once per level range. Something like releveling 3 to 5 levels once from 1-10, another time in the 11-20 range and a last time in 21-30.

RCR goes back to being used for its original purpose and there's a limited undo option available.

[lum]

I'm not interested in much of it all. And actually I got several characters in all layers of society (meaning I got all sorts of levels) to play with anyone should I/they desire so

For myself I just wanted to rcr one character for a long time now, but if it's going to take another year or more, I may just take the 50% xp hit. Sadly I won be able to rp her ability to create masterful elixirs anymore since level 30 is gone-ish,... until I get back to that point again. Farewell for a while on that, and to me it actually breaks rp a bit.

Then, the road from 20 to 30 personally for me is a long drag (the longest even), and that while my current toon has enough xp for a level 23 even with a 50% cut. But nope, the rule says a 30 needs to sink back to 20, no matter how much over-xp they have collected (and worked for).

Initially I wanted to keep the character the same person. But since I may seem to take the signifcant xp hit, I might as well change the character into another person. That doesn't solve any 'discomforts' certain people may have with new toons starting with an already fairly powerful level, even as they just 'arrive' at these shores, nor does it solve the problem with empty lowbie dungeons.

But thanks for the extensive replies and the sharing of (some fair) concerns.

-Lum

[chad878262]

There could be an option that allows you to just relevel a fixed number of levels once per level range. Something like releveling 3 to 5 levels once from 1-10, another time in the 11-20 range and a last time in 21-30.

A fair suggestion, but has it's own issues that have prevented it from being implemented (outside what we have today which is you can ask a DM to delevel you, without refunding the XP.) The reason for no mechanical implementation is due to exploits (the most famous of which would be Wizards gaining additional spell selections, but there are some rare others). So my thought is that no, we wouldn't implement a 'releveling tool' since it may cause us to end up with other issues such as players forgetting to remove spells, crossing the threshold and then needing admin help to fix their character.

@lum - I get you mate (and good to see you back around, hope all is well). It's one of those situations I guess where the negatives make it impossible for us to support without some serious issues.

[izzul]

change back Divine Power nerf to increase BAB based on CL(to avoid UMD user abusing it) rather than AB and give 100% RCR (because big mechanical change)

[Steve]

Sure, constant 100% RCR, plus the following...and we only get a single PC in our Vault.

Subject: Grind Suggestion Dump

All PCs start at Level 30. Dying puts you back to Level 29 every time.

All Areas are “upgraded” to CR29+ (upwards to max CR 40...you know, for the challenge).

This way, we’d all spend more time with Role-play, and within role-play we’d have a plethora of Areas to adventure in for loot (and the general fun of killing mobs(lol)).

Some Areas would be set to CR 40 for a constant group challenge, and always with a decent Risk since if your PC is Fugued, that’s a delevel to 29. So Solo-ers beware!

Oh yeah, resurrection spells now cost 1 Diamond and 30,000 gp per cast.

[Rask]

Is it possible to perhaps meet somewhere in the middle?

Like a "token" system, where each new character is given 1 token where they get 100% RCR? Or something along those lines. Where if someone screws up their build really badly without knowing it, or is still "learning" the game mechanics and doesn't realize they've made a terrible choice, they get to use that token for 1 "free" 100% XP RCR? Each character only gets the 1. After that, normal RCR rules apply. Each character, on creation, spawns with that one token they can use at any time, and its non- tradable ect.

Though personally, i'd love to see level 30 be rare, and XP gain be way slower to encourage RP, but this server has not (and never will.) operate that way. but I think a token might be cool, if such a thing could be implemented.

[Steve]

The real question to be asked, is: why on BGTSCC do we find the desire to have mechanically “perfect” builds?

[MadSeer]

The real question to be asked, is: why on BGTSCC do we find the desire to have mechanically “perfect” builds?

No one wants to RCR to have a mechanically perfect build. Okay, maybe some do. However, the majority of PVE content and DM events promote the use of strong builds. Even then, that's not my main concern, it's the availability of information on custom changes. In-game descriptions of abilities aren't always accurate and the correct information is rarely available. If no one can answer you on the discord, you end up having to try it out for yourself and odds are it's not going to work as expected.

You can't expect everything to be coherent on a community server, let alone one with 10 years of content behind it, but it seems reasonable to suggest workarounds to those problems.

[Rhifox]

It has already been said that if a 100% RCR period is done, it won't be until after server split.

[Blackbird]

The real question to be asked, is: why on BGTSCC do we find the desire to have mechanically “perfect” builds?

Probably a lot of answers to that question—from the feel of the character, to the enjoyment of the player, to the way this PW has been shaped by its many years, to the contingent of long-time players with perfectly sculpted characters driving large narratives.

To your earlier suggestion, I actually played on an NWN 1 server about a decade ago that started everyone at level 30 and was rife with dangerous monsters meant to be challenging even at that level. It was full of powerbuilds (or as mechanically close as you could get and RP your concept). The downside was, of course, that it was full of powerbuilds and there needed to be some suspension of disbelief given the power level of NPC enemies. The upside was that it leveled the playing field dramatically for the players. Regardless of whether you had been playing there for a year or a week, you could fully realize your character concept and not ever feel like you would get saddled with something half-baked that you had to suffer through. If you wanted to play a mighty paladin of Helm out to smite some evil wizards, then it was entirely possible; the wizards weren't going to roll you because you had a bad build you had no choice except to play under penalty of long re-levels. Because everyone and everything was equally dangerous, it actually encouraged more team/faction-related related RP both from a player-to/vs-player side and from a PvE standpoint.

[SpookySkeleton]

Just my two cents, I like "perfect builds" because I like being powerful, but when crafting my plan I first picked what I wanted to role-play then made the build after. I could have made some crazy build with three prestige classes smashed unceremoniously together to be a bit more powerful, but decided that was kind of dumb.

So, even though my build is less powerful than possible due to RP purposes, it doesn't mean that I don't want to execute my build how I envision it in my head. I had to RCR at level 6 because I had messed up, it would be pretty frustrating to have to do it again now that I am in the upper teens and lose progress.

[Steve]

I ask this question not only from the position of “why do we want it...” but also from the observation that “the Server is more enjoyable/possible/demanding” that we do it.

For a long time now, I’ve been upholding the suggestion by Valefort that if the Server was changed to be EASIER than it currently is, in terms of mechanical challenges, then building for perfection, ie power, would be actually unnecessary, and in practice super boring, when applied.

But alas, the current paradigm is that we MUST squeeze out every last bit of mechanical power...and this does relate to the issue that some mechanical plans simply have to be tests out if they will work, which REQUIRES the player to make the investment, and take the chance.

Instead, players want to have the perfect plan without the investment, nor make the effort to “try it out.”

Many of us have spent years “trying it out.” That is part of the fun (if you ask me).

So again, I’ll say this: the current RCR policy and the percentages is a Gift. If you get to 30 and don’t like the outcome, then you have the option to “edit” or start again at Level 20...and that is truly a gift.

Another way to say it is: you must not have been around BEFORE there was any sort of public RCR, when EVERY new concept build/PC had to start at Level 1. LEVEL ONE EVERY TIME!!!

Think about that.

[MadSeer]

I ask this question not only from the position of “why do we want it...” but also from the observation that “the Server is more enjoyable/possible/demanding” that we do it.

For a long time now, I’ve been upholding the suggestion by Valefort that if the Server was changed to be EASIER than it currently is, in terms of mechanical challenges, then building for perfection, ie power, would be actually unnecessary, and in practice super boring, when applied.

But alas, the current paradigm is that we MUST squeeze out every last bit of mechanical power...and this does relate to the issue that some mechanical plans simply have to be tests out if they will work, which REQUIRES the player to make the investment, and take the chance.

Instead, players want to have the perfect plan without the investment, nor make the effort to “try it out.”

Many of us have spent years “trying it out.” That is part of the fun (if you ask me).

So again, I’ll say this: the current RCR policy and the percentages is a Gift. If you get to 30 and don’t like the outcome, then you have the option to “edit” or start again at Level 20...and that is truly a gift.

Another way to say it is: you must not have been around BEFORE there was any sort of public RCR, when EVERY new concept build/PC had to start at Level 1. LEVEL ONE EVERY TIME!!!

Think about that.

Any mechanical hurdle you had to face back then was only that of the vanilla content. I was very much around before RCR existed and you never had to ask yourself if custom feat A worked when custom feat B was active and if it added to custom feat C's bonus. I'm not saying it was better then, it wasn't, but the issues we're bringing up now are a consequence of features that didn't exist then. Trying out a concept vs figuring out if things work as they should work are very different.

[Blackbird]

Instead, players want to have the perfect plan without the investment, nor make the effort to “try it out.”

Many of us have spent years “trying it out.” That is part of the fun (if you ask me).

So again, I’ll say this: the current RCR policy and the percentages is a Gift. If you get to 30 and don’t like the outcome, then you have the option to “edit” or start again at Level 20...and that is truly a gift.

Another way to say it is: you must not have been around BEFORE there was any sort of public RCR, when EVERY new concept build/PC had to start at Level 1. LEVEL ONE EVERY TIME!!!

Think about that.

There's a difference between trying something out and investing hours leveling a character to find that it doesn't work mechanically because of misinformation on the wiki or broken scripts in JEGs or your lack of knowledge of the game mechanics as a whole. As I noted before, this is disrespecting the player's time. People have other commitments in life that are not RPing a character on the PW and if they come here to escape those commitments only to have to slog through a new character because of obfuscated information regarding functionality, it just sucks. It's a big slap in the face for the player and it feels like a punishment for not being on the server long enough. It would be a different story if the PW's mechanics were fully-documented in perfect detail on the wiki, if nwn2db could create builds based off BGTSCC, if full functionality was replicated in JEGs or if there was a place to test a character build on the PW prior to actually leveling it to an "online" state.

Because of the 3by20 rule, I have less sympathy for level 30 builds breaking; most builds will come online by 20, but you can't RCR back to 20 at 20. You actually get dumped down lower than you would if you RCR'd earlier when a major build issue might not be as apparent.