Hellfire Warlock: Get rid of the "evil" requirement

[DM Gixustrat]

I don't even have a warlock and whether they are balanced is an entirely different monster alltogether. However after doing some reading of my own I am also of the mind that alignment restrictions could use another looksie, and hellfire warlocks are certainly capable of using their powers for good. That said, I'd be curious to see what the heavy weights on the forums have to add.

[Rhifox]

Ultimately, if someone wants to RP a tortured-morally-gray warlock who uses Hellfire but battles against it's darker impulses, the system NWN2 is based on says it's fine, so I tend to agree.

You can still do this with Evil alignment tbh. Like, I don't care either way whether Hellfire requires being Evil or not (but as I quoted before, in pnp at least there is no requirement), but RP-wise there's a lot of freedom in what you can RP in most alignments.

[yyj]

There are many ways to write a villain

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... entBastard

[Hoihe]

Ultimately, if someone wants to RP a tortured-morally-gray warlock who uses Hellfire but battles against it's darker impulses, the system NWN2 is based on says it's fine, so I tend to agree.

You can still do this with Evil alignment tbh. Like, I don't care either way whether Hellfire requires being Evil or not (but as I quoted before, in pnp at least there is no requirement), but RP-wise there's a lot of freedom in what you can RP in most alignments.

People should remember that alignments are descriptive, not prescriptive.

An evil alignment for HF Warlock essentially means: Upon first using that horrible power, you receive something like 9001 evil points. You might end up being the nicest person around afterwards - but good luck doing enough good to even balance it, much less end up Good again.

Similar idea as to becoming a lich without blessing of good aligned deities - the acts required to become a lich as so horrible and damning, you'll end up evil even if you spend the rest of your unlife in a tower reading books and hurting nobody ever again. Becoming evil in either case doesn't make you do evil acts, merely says "In eyes of the gods, the deeds you commited have left a massive stain on your moral fabric." Now, whether committing these dark acts could break you and end up leaving you addicted to the sense of power they provide... Now that's another question

[Louvaine]

"In eyes of the gods, the deeds you commited have left a massive stain on your moral fabric."

It just seems to me like that has more to do with the gods than my character. And I'm interested in discovering my character, not what gods think of it. But perhaps this is what you meant with:

Now, whether committing these dark acts could break you and end up leaving you addicted to the sense of power they provide... Now that's another question

That sounds like something more interested to explore in roleplay. And I don't perceive that as allignment, too. Good PC can be just as much vulnerable to addition as an evil one. Which goes back to Warlock and Hellfire Warlock. I, personally, still don't think alignment requirement is necessary. Not that I think any alignment is necessary. Sounds like a system that just promotes metagaming (here's a Smite, because I know you're evil from the color of your magic!).

[Hoihe]

"In eyes of the gods, the deeds you commited have left a massive stain on your moral fabric."

It just seems to me like that has more to do with the gods than my character. And I'm interested in discovering my character, not what gods think of it. But perhaps this is what you meant with:

Now, whether committing these dark acts could break you and end up leaving you addicted to the sense of power they provide... Now that's another question

That sounds like something more interested to explore in roleplay. And I don't perceive that as allignment, too. Good PC can be just as much vulnerable to addition as an evil one. Which goes back to Warlock and Hellfire Warlock. I, personally, still don't think alignment requirement is necessary. Not that I think any alignment is necessary. Sounds like a system that just promotes metagaming (here's a Smite, because I know you're evil from the color of your magic!).

Thing is, the alignment system is for the gods - not for the PCs. Let's say an edge case where through vile and dark acts, you unlocked the power of Hellfire and channel it within the Prime Material without selling your soul to a devil.

You thought yourself lucky, a good deal - but you still end up with an evil alignment and unless you worship a god that's willing to allow some crazy person who tainted themselves with the acts necessary to channel hellfire - you're going to end up as a False and become one of Jergal's faceless, nameless servants for eternity. Or you get approached by a devil and still end up selling your soul for hopes of avoiding oblivion.

Maybe you can approach Lathander's clergy and swear an oath that you'll spend the rest of your life atoning for it, hoping he'll welcome you in his paradise. But I'm willing to bet that this oath will include no more use of this power. And considering the degree of evil involved, it might not be enough.

[Louvaine]

I suppose that's where my lack of FR's lore comes into play. I often disregard stuff like that in favor of more grounded roleplay. But that's fine, I respect your approach, even if it's guided by something I yet have little knowledge of. Maybe one day I'll continue this conversation with you, Hoihe.

[Steve]

People should remember that alignments are descriptive, not prescriptive.

I'd argue they are both, actually.

I looked up Alignment in the DMG for 3.5e, and found this under Changing Alignments:

A character can have a change of heart that leads to the adoption of a different alignment. Alignments aren’t commitments, except in specific cases (such as for paladins and clerics). Player characters have free will, and their actions often dictate a change of alignment. Here are two examples of how a change of alignment can be handled.
• A player creates a new character, a rogue named Garrett. The player decides he wants Garrett to be neutral good and writes
that on Garrett’s character sheet. By the second playing session of Garrett’s career, however, it’s clear that the player isn’t playing Garrett as a good-aligned character at all. Garrett likes to steal minor valuables from others (although not his friends) and does not care about helping people or stopping evil. Garrett is a
neutral character, and the player made a mistake when declaring Garrett’s alignment because he hadn’t yet really decided how he wanted to play him. The DM tells the player to erase “good” on Garrett’s character sheet, making his alignment simply “neutral.” No big deal.
• An NPC traveling with the PCs is chaotic evil and is pretending to be otherwise because he was sent to spy on them and foil their plans. He has been evil all his life, and he has lived among others who acted as he did. As he fights alongside the goodaligned PC adventurers, however, he sees how they work together and help each other. He begins to envy them their camaraderie. Finally, he watches as the paladin PC gives his life to save not only his friends, but an entire town that was poised on the brink of destruction at the hands of an evil sorcerer. Everyone is deeply moved, including the evil NPC, and the town celebrates and honors the paladin’s self-sacrifice. The townfolk hail the adventurers as heroes. The NPC is so moved that he repents, casting aside his own evil ways (and his
mission). He becomes chaotic neutral, but he is well on his way to becoming chaotic good, particularly if he remains in the company of the PCs. If the PCs had not acted so gallantly, he might not have changed his ways. If they turn on the NPC when they learn of his past, he may turn back to evil.

Most characters incur no game penalty for changing alignment, but you should keep a few points in mind.

You’re [DMs] in Control: You control alignment changes, not the players. If a player says, “My neutral good character becomes chaotic good,” the appropriate response from you is “Prove it.” Actions dictate alignment, not statements of intent by players.

Alignment Change Is Gradual: Changes in alignment should not be drastic. Usually, a character changes alignment only one step at a time—from lawful evil to lawful neutral, for example, and not directly to neutral good. A character on her way to adopting another alignment might have other alignments during the
transition to the final alignment.

Time Requirements: Changing alignment usually takes time. Changes of heart are rarely sudden (although they can be). What you want to avoid is a player changing her character’s alignment to evil to use an evil artifact properly and then changing it right back when she’s done. Alignments aren’t garments you can take off and put on casually. Require an interval of at least a week of game time between alignment changes.

Indecisiveness Indicates Neutrality: Wishy-washy characters should just be neutral. If a character changes alignment over and over again during a campaign, what’s really happened is that the character hasn’t made a choice, and thus she is neutral.

Exceptions: There are exceptions to all of the above. For instance, it’s possible (although unlikely) that the most horrible neutral evil villain has a sudden and dramatic change of heart and immediately becomes neutral good.

And as well the Player's Handbook 3.5e:

ALIGNMENT

In the temple of Pelor is an ancient tome. When the temple recruits adventurers for its most sensitive and important quests, each one who wants to participate must kiss the book. Those who are evil in their hearts are blasted by holy power, and even those who are neither good nor evil are stunned. Only those who are good can kiss the tome without harm and are trusted with the temple’s most important work. Good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game. They are the forces that define the cosmos.

Devils in human guise stalk the land, tempting people toward evil. Holy clerics use the power of good to protect worshipers. Devotees of evil gods bring ruin on innocents to win the favor of their deities, while trusting that rewards await them in the afterlife. Crusading paladins fearlessly confront evildoers, knowing that
this short life is nothing worth clinging to. Warlords turn to whichever supernatural power will help them conquer, and proxies for good and evil gods promise rewards in return for the warlords’ oaths of obedience.

A creature’s general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment: lawful good, neutral good, chaotic good, lawful neutral, neutral, chaotic neutral, lawful evil, neutral evil, and chaotic evil. Choose an alignment for your character, using his or her race and class as a guide. Most player characters are good or neutral rather than evil. In general, evil alignments are for villains and monsters.

Alignment is a tool for developing your character’s identity. It is not a straitjacket for restricting your character. Each alignment represents a broad range of
personality types or personal philosophies, so two lawful good characters can still be quite different from each other. In addition, few people are completely consistent. A lawful good character may have a greedy streak that occasionally tempts him to take something or hoard something he has even if that’s not lawful or good behavior. People are also not consistent from day to day. A good character can lose his temper, a neutral character can be inspired to perform a noble act, and so on.

Choosing an alignment for your character means stating your intent to play that character a certain way. If your character acts in a way more appropriate to another alignment, the DM may decide that your character’s alignment has changed to match her actions.

Based on the two sources above, it would be my assumption that, related to Hellfire Warlock and the OP, the DM Team at some point in time decided that ONLY a Evil aligned PC would become a Hellfire Warlock. That to wield this power would either a) corrupt the soul of a Character towards Evil, or b) being Evil in soul is the point-of-access to such Hellish powers.

Since the DM Team cannot be there to support every single player's small Character change, storyline, alignment changing actions, etc., this must have seem like the best solution (at the time).

Regardless, core Source Books do not have the Evil req. for taking on the PrC, and thus it shouldn't be the case on BG UNLESS the DMs see it fit to stand, based on "homebrew" changes.

But all the above should though through on how the designers of this specific game—3.5e D&D—laid out the Rules behind aspects of role-playing Characters. An Alignment choice, by the Player at Character Creation, is for an "intent to play" the said Character under the descriptive elements of whatever alignment. It is not good sportsmanship to choose an alignment for your PC and then set out to play it with different attitudes, actions, concepts, philosophy that what is listed on the Character Sheet. That said, it is entirely possible AND SUPPORTED to have an alignment shift, but...it is a process.

FREE THE HELLFIRE WARLOCKS FROM THEIR EVIL SHACKLES!!! But also make Hellfire use punishable by Death in all civilized lands. Because as we've already gone through, even if you're PC is not Evil but utilizing Hellfire, they should be systematically shunned from society.

[Rhifox]

It's both, yes. You can be evil in behavior or intent. Or you can be evil by action. Characters who regularly use evil spells, even to do good, are going to be evil. You can play your tormented soul, but they're probably going to be on a slow slide down to evil-town. It's not totally free: If you are evil, it's because you've done something to warrant it.

FREE THE HELLFIRE WARLOCKS FROM THEIR EVIL SHACKLES!!! But also make Hellfire use punishable by Death in all civilized lands. Because as we've already gone through, even if you're PC is not Evil but utilizing Hellfire, they should be systematically shunned from society.

Now that is something I could get behind. Warlocks get too much social privileges other dark mages lack.

[Blame The Rogue]

pacts can also be a family inheritance/curse? if such is the case, the character would not necessarily be evil

[Kitunenotsume]

There is always the potential for a controversial middle ground where taking levels in the class slowly shifts alignment, either through evil points gained with each level, or a jump at breakpoints.

I feel like the debate basically revolves around: "Does being evil let you use hellfire, or does using hellfire drive you to evil?" as the apparent chicken-egg scenario.
I am among those supporting that the hellfire enables evil, rather than being evil enabling hellfire.

[VDub]

Would be nice to have it coded where each time you used a hellfire warlock ability it shifted you towards evil a bit.

I wouldn't say that an eldritch blast is evil, but drawing upon hellfire to add to that blast would be. Using hellfire to protect yourself would be as well. Summoning a devil as your servant would definitely be evil.

It's not like the character is unknowingly using these powers. The abilities are activated, showing your character is actively drawing upon these powers. It's a choice to use powers from the hells. Be it for good or evil. The Hells is still where the power originates.

[Blame The Rogue]

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Hellfire

One branch of warlocks that could use hellfire regardless of their ethical and moral outlook were the hellfire warlocks.

[Kitunenotsume]

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Hellfire

One branch of warlocks that could use hellfire regardless of their ethical and moral outlook were the hellfire warlocks.

I agree that anyone should be able to use it without restriction to alignment or ethic, just like anyone can use murder. However, devoting one's self and one's agenda to using those tools is a slope that strongly trends in the evil direction as one commits further and further.

Reason the argument is that hellfire tends to evil is because, as your article points out, Hellfire is a tool basically invented, leased, and licensed out by Mephistopheles and uses the essence of Baator as a power source. Using it directly furthers the goals of an archfiend and taps into the infernal realm, regardless of how it gets used.

[yyj]

I think people are going circles in this thread.

I want to read some backgrounds on good hellfire warlocks and how they justify the use of it and how it will apply on RP.

Do note that this is way different from using necromancy, if you read the Forgotten Realms entry wiki, you can read the following:

Hellfire warlocks were the target of distrust, if not of outright hostility. Warlocks in general were not trusted, and when it came to warlocks who openly used the evil powers of Baator, people saw even less reasons to trust them. Only those hellfire warlocks who successfully hid their unique powers could hope to be met with normal reactions by other people. That said, not every hellfire warlock was evil, but it was quite normal for hellfire warlocks to head groups of thugs and/or devils as part of infernal cults against organizations dedicated to good. Hellfire warlocks with relationships to infernal cults took guardian and enforcer jobs, and were valued members of such cults thanks to their combat abilities.[2]

It also says that they have a penchant to bully people.

So it does seems that channeling infernal energies will eventually turn up someone evil, how would a player RP such a thing? I would say, most just build for mechanical power rather than roleplaying, since a DM cannot be checking all hellfire warlocks (or paladins for that matter) it makes sense to have the evil alignment limited.