100% RCR Token instead of a gated window

[artemitavik]

I have no particular issue with that. I'd still prefer, say, a 6 month "refresh" period if you don't have a token already, 100% rcr period or not. But that's me.

[Rhifox]

But using this tool as a means to constantly tweak/morph/rewrite the basic Character, imho, is going a bit far. As in examples of Wizards becoming Sorcerers, Humans becoming Tieflings, etc.

There is nothing wrong with this when there is legitimate character development leading to such changes, or when it's determined that a particular build is just not appropriate to the concept of the character as the character is being played. (I sometimes need several before I nail down 'this is who the character is' and stick with it). Heck even race changes occasionally have IC reasons, as certain magic is capable of doing that.

Of course, there's plenty of people who abuse it to make changes purely for mechanical optimization and being the strongest even when it makes no IC sense, but I'm fine with letting those people do whatever if it means the rest of us can make character-development-derived changes without having to waste DM time with applications every time. For which I consider 50% RCRs perfectly fine: I'm plenty willing to sacrifice exp and time for the option to adjust my character according to upholding concept/RP developments, and there is certainly reason to include a consequence to RCRing to discourage people from rebuilding their characters arbitrarily (so I don't generally support 100% as a common, consistent thing, unless there's another consequence imposed like a huge gold sink).

[artemitavik]

the problem I have with the "just put more time into leveling" is that... I have very little time to game in general.

Last thing I want to do is honestly, spend a massive portion of it leveling up.... again...

But that's me.

[Steve]

For which I consider 50% RCRs perfectly fine: I'm plenty willing to sacrifice exp and time for the option to adjust my character according to upholding concept/RP developments, and there is certainly reason to include a consequence to RCRing to discourage people from rebuilding their characters arbitrarily (so I don't generally support 100% as a common, consistent thing, unless there's another consequence imposed like a huge gold sink).

Yeah, this is why I've made the suggestion that each PC has the opportunity for a 1-time 100% RCR from creation, in the event a mistake was made in the build plan, and to alleviate having to re-level by grinding it out, spending again RL time just to regain stature. If there are Players that wish to remake or retool or adjust their PrCs and Skill sets ad infinitum, than the 50% RCR as it is normally, should suffice (meaning that constant growth DOES require regaining experience to return to the stature once had).

[DM SummerBreeze]

Honestly I think this is a neat Idea. I think a character should receive 2 100% RCR tokens myself. I am not dev, but I think it would be cool if they could gain one at level 30, and one at level 20. That way at level 20, they can remake and fix any build mistakes, this is especially handy for newer players.

Level 30 because, well, you've hit max level, perhaps you want to tweak and refine this character, or save it for a character-altering arch. But the 2 tokens can be cashed in at any time, so a person can save their level 20 one for any time in between 20-30 ect as well.

[Zanniej]

For one of the worries, I can tell you that the RCR period will not be expressed in weeks, but rather in months. We want to give people ample time to make use of it.

The other suggestions are really good too. Unfortunately, they will need some development to be done, so we're dependent on developers for that.
I'll see what is possible in that regard.

I really appreciate all the great input here!

[thepaganking]

Reading through the thread I saw some really great ideas and insights. I like the first post that started this - provide 1 RCR token per character. That character can use the RCR token anytime during his lifecycle (1-30) and once used, cannot get another token. This puts the onus on players to plan their RCR carefully, because once they use it, they have to go back to the old system and grind.

I also agree with Mr. Smith - it would be a very exciting event to open a chest or pick up a drop and find an RCR token. It should be very rare, of course.

TPK.

[DM Gixustrat]

I really loved the original topic posting idea, monthly seems too often. One at level 20 and one every 6 months would make many people happy I think. Reasonable time to remaster something, now mind you it can be quite easy to level some classes to 20 than others so there is a level of abuse with the level 20 distribution idea. So I guess I'm leaning more towards tokens given out every 3 to 6 months. Probably the least amount of work if there is an easy to use delivery method.

[Deathgrowl]

Nothing is stopping people from switching from one race to the other as it is, and not having it a 100% refund is just tedious for those who need a rework, I never saw the whole ''people can change everything about their character'' as a good argument myself.

The fact that it is tedious is a good thing for those of us who are and have been against 100% RCR. It's a mitigating factor, a hurdle to get over. Someone thinks "oh, should I try this out?" and has to consider the cost of doing so. It prevents a lot of silliness that we saw much of during the 100% RCR periods of the past.

Essentially, the easier it becomes to change things about a character with no real cost, the more often it is going to happen. That means the drastic 30 charisma / 8 wisdom sorcerer to 8 charisma / 30 wisdom druid kind of changes will also happen more often.

[izzul]

Nothing is stopping people from switching from one race to the other as it is, and not having it a 100% refund is just tedious for those who need a rework, I never saw the whole ''people can change everything about their character'' as a good argument myself.

The fact that it is tedious is a good thing for those of us who are and have been against 100% RCR. It's a mitigating factor, a hurdle to get over. Someone thinks "oh, should I try this out?" and has to consider the cost of doing so. It prevents a lot of silliness that we saw much of during the 100% RCR periods of the past.

Essentially, the easier it becomes to change things about a character with no real cost, the more often it is going to happen. That means the drastic 30 charisma / 8 wisdom sorcerer to 8 charisma / 30 wisdom druid kind of changes will also happen more often.

+1

[Bobthehero]

It also affects those who have legit reasons to want to rebuild their PC. It's the usual ''punish everyone for the action of the few'' mentality at work, I guess.

[Tanlaus]

One thing I really like about the RCR token idea is that it seems like a nice compromise. People who need to fix a build without going through the grind can do it. But it prevents the extreme day to day changes that can be pretty immersion breaking.

[Deathgrowl]

It also affects those who have legit reasons to want to rebuild their PC. It's the usual ''punish everyone for the action of the few'' mentality at work, I guess.

Maybe, but in those cases, there usually are rules in place already to deal with the issue, and new ones are added unnecessarily on top of that.

I'm happy to be persuaded to a different view of RCR, but you would have to assuage our concerns somehow first with a suggestion to simultaneously deal with those. Preferrably without adding to DM workload, since that appears to be important to these things.

[Bobthehero]

There is no way to fix your build or mistakes without taking a XP hit and having to level up all over.

[Alonso]

The fact that it is tedious is a good thing for those of us who are and have been against 100% RCR. It's a mitigating factor, a hurdle to get over. Someone thinks "oh, should I try this out?" and has to consider the cost of doing so. It prevents a lot of silliness that we saw much of during the 100% RCR periods of the past.

Essentially, the easier it becomes to change things about a character with no real cost, the more often it is going to happen. That means the drastic 30 charisma / 8 wisdom sorcerer to 8 charisma / 30 wisdom druid kind of changes will also happen more often.

My two cents would be - trying new things out is an important part of character development both irl and in fictional universes. You are not going to be getting any new levels after level 30, and 3b20 rule means you aren't getting any new classes after level 18. So if you want to have character ICly try out a new thing, a new style of fighting or just make an attempt to learn a new skill, your only option, a lot of the time, is RCR. Even if you it's something benign as character picking up a new hobby and player wanting to shift a couple of skill point to represent a newly acquired interest. Why wouldn't a level 30 character be able to learn a new thing? Why should character development be punishable?
And sure, it makes sense that my char would be lower level if they decide to do something entirely different from their usual occupation. But what if I and/or my char doesn't like it and decides to come back to tried and true? There is no undo button on RCR, so I'm left with what? 15th level char instead of 30th? I feel like it's going to be harder to ICly explain such a power drop, than to ICly explain how your character has become an expert dual-wielder over the course of a night, as unlikely as that is.

As for latter point about too drastic of a change. We already discourage those kinds of RCR fairly vocally, it feels like. And everyone is aware that they are immersion breaking for many, and just don't look good no matter how you look at it. So it's not gonna be "changing a character with no real cost", it's more of a "changing a character at a cost of my dignity and potential respect of other players". I'm sure you know plenty of examples when that didn't stop someone, but still, it is a different situation from what you're describing.

If any of those are a concern - it's better to come up with written RCR etiquette that is approved by DMs and community in general, than to limit 100% RCRs. Maybe even nag staff into pinning them or some such. I'd actually be interested to read that.