Loot and Diminishing Returns (or however you want to call it)

[Steve]

Hello,

Because of this:

Subject: Coming Soon: New Epic Weapons

In addition to the above, more than 200 epic items of many kinds have been added to the loot table. Many of which have been already owned by veteran PCs and now everyone will have a chance to dig them out from treasure chests (though, an extreme luck might be necessary - pray to Tymora).

I am reminded again of this:

Subject: Loot Rebalance

Is maybe the problem with balancing loot that some players loot 3 chests per week and some players loot 30 chests per day?

Is there a way to make diminishing returns? So your first 'special/boss' chest of the day has a high % chance of amazing loot, but subsequent ones have a lower and lower chance?

Acquiring Epic Loot from drops and chests isn’t just about luck (or falsely assumed prayers! ). It is about the number of RL hours a Player can spend on the game, and the total number of chests per hour per day per week per month per year per Life a player can crank out because they HAVE NO LIFE!! J/k. But maybe just a little true.

Essentially, the RIG is rigged against the casual player, and I’m going to also say the average investment player. It is especially against the player that wishes to focus LEAST on the Adventurer Life.

So I’m greatly interested in Thaelis’ suggestion, which I think is absolutely on point I regard to Loot Fairness, reduction of economy production, RP promotion, etc.

So my question/suggestion is: would diminishing returns even be possible, in implementation? And if it could be implemented, what would it take for that to become a reality for BGTSCC??

The idea being ALL PLAYERS have a decent percentage for Loot equals to Area CR, at their initial outset but continued looting drives diminishing returns.

I’m ready to channel my Epic Lobbyist here!

[Alexander Holgart]

Essentially, the RIG is rigged against the casual player, and I’m going to also say the average investment player. It is especially against the player that wishes to focus LEAST on the Adventurer Life.

I feel I fall into this category. I play quite a lot but I mostly RP, I don't like the dungeon runs too much but I need the gear like everyone else and the consumables. So I need coins.

I find myself looting basically nothing on most runs I do, the diminishing returns idea might be nice, I would also appreciate if there could be a slight increase on coins found inside chests. Opening a chest in a lvl 24 dungeon to find 38 coins is kind of sad, especially if that happens for all chests in the dungeon. A flat increase on coins based on the CR of the dungeon would make a more casual player like me feel less like I wasted my time getting in there in the first place.

I am not talking a huge increase, like even a few hundreds coins. At least you go out of the dungeon with 4-5k guaranteed on each run, to cover for consumable expenses.

As I said, the dimishing return idea I don't mind as well, though I can see the most hardcore looters not too happy about it.

[Hoihe]

I feel this would also encourage partying far more than difficulty changes.

I strongly support this.

Reasoning for why I feel so:

Imagine a guild whose members only run theme-appropriate dungeons once a week. Let's say, a guild of paladins worshipping lathander who REALLY HATE UNDEAD and they kill all level appropriate undead. Due to timezones, they can only muster their full strength of 4-6 players for 1-3 hours. This is enough time to do vault of the dead and maybe go kill Chaos (assuming slow-paced adventure where they RP out travel, treatment, scouting).

This guild, despite doing what some would consider the "intended experience" will be incredibly poor unless the leader or members go out of their way to loot beyond their scheduled runs.

The scheduled run loses its impact as it brings barely enough to cover the party's needs.


Now, we change things so that the first dungeon you run in a week guarnatees a hefty profit for every member of this party. Say, 10K per person guaranteed over 5 chests. It might go higher (and very good chance it will go higher for the first run!), but it won't go lower for your first run in a week. This only applies for the first 5 level appropriate chests you open in the week.

Suddenly, the paladin guild can cover their expenses and needs and the players have time to focus on RP outside the weekly undead patrol without having to solo grind to really progress.

[DaloLorn]

Honestly, this would probably also be a good change for leveling. It would (to an extent) discourage grinding gnolls, xvarts, or what have you, and it would allow parties to more easily maintain cohesion over prolonged periods, because no individual member would be too likely to massively outlevel the others unless the others stopped playing.

A similar mechanic exists on NWN:EE's Ravenloft, where non-RP XP receives reductions (or occasionally modest boosts) based on how far ahead of the average PC your character is ("average PC" here being averaged across all PCs that age). The effect is further bolstered by the fact that you can't see your exact XP gains (only the fact that you've gained XP; it's accumulated in a hidden variable until you're ready for your next level), so it's harder to min-max your XP gains.

[Hoihe]

Honestly, this would probably also be a good change for leveling. It would (to an extent) discourage grinding gnolls, xvarts, or what have you, and it would allow parties to more easily maintain cohesion over prolonged periods, because no individual member would be too likely to massively outlevel the others unless the others stopped playing.

A similar mechanic exists on NWN:EE's Ravenloft, where non-RP XP receives reductions (or occasionally modest boosts) based on how far ahead of the average PC your character is ("average PC" here being averaged across all PCs that age). The effect is further bolstered by the fact that you can't see your exact XP gains (only the fact that you've gained XP; it's accumulated in a hidden variable until you're ready for your next level), so it's harder to min-max your XP gains.

I think that would go in the other direction too far.

The idea proposed is to take the current system as the baseline (as in: after you ran out of your weekly boost, you go back to what we currently have) and add a temporary peak you can benefit from weekly.

Kind of like "quests" except not soul-shattering and possible to do together without conflict.

[Lux]

Diminishing returns would indeed give casuals and the more RP focused players a much needed leg up. Snip of what I wrote in the Loot Rebalance thread:

Hidden: show

Here's a suggestion aimed at addressing one of the problems raised in this thread:

• Diminishing returns

Adjust so that everyone's first loot run is much more rewarding with a generous chance at good gear drops. Every subsequent run will give less bonus until there's none left.

Quick illustration:

Hidden: show

(Image shows that the first run is set to 400%, the second 200%, the third 150%, the fourth 125% and the fifth and every subsequent run at the baseline of 100%.)

I drew it with a rather steep decline after the first run (removed 2/3 of bonus for a total of 50%) and a slower one after that (bonus halved).

Though it might look a bit extreme, it's really more of a re-allocation from loot received later runs to the first run, intended as a leg up for people who are infrequent looters with bigger rewards for the effort put in. But all numbers remain adjustable, of course.

For clarity's sake I want to say that I'm not straight off suggesting an increase in loot by this much. I'm saying adjust loot returns to have this effect. At a wild guess I'd place today's loot returns at somewhere around 150% - 200% in my image.

Reset timer could be once a week, or 6 days + 12h to allow people to repeat the same time every week.






And perhaps this too:

• Group loot bonus per player

Add a small bonus for every member in a group over 1 up to a maximum of, say, 25% (5% bonus each) for 6 player groups, added to the bonus above.

TL;DR: yes, diminishing returns, and maybe a small bonus for grouping up for it. It would naturally somewhat lower the total effect of looting for those able to devote much time and effort to it, but it would massively help everyone else.

[Steve]

I could see the idea of diminishing returns for XP be applied.

But that is for another thread; this one is specifically about Loot.

Thank you!

[Young Werther]

I like ideas that would put my extra CD keys and VPN to good use. I get to feel like hackerman.

[Steve]

I like ideas that would put my extra CD keys and VPN to good use. I get to feel like hackerman.

I was waiting for a <redacted> (lol) post like this! I should have timed the wait...we might have had a new speed record!!

You know what? If that is your Game, great, CD Key hack-blaze-away with your bad arse self! That won’t hurt at all the point of this thread: making it such that those with less lootz-grindz interest have a significantly better result upfront, making such new content additions a plausible experience-to-acquire for the Majority.

Win win.

[Tanlaus]

The problem I see is, when the loot balance happened the percent chance to find epic gear was increased already. If you increase it more so that everyone can find stuff on their first and/or only run that week, or few days or whatever, then you flood the market even more than it is now.

Conversely you could leave it as is but just decrease the chance of finding anything good on a multi day/week timescale...

But now you're basically saying to people who like to loot run that their playstyle is not as valid or desirable as yours.

[Steve]

But now you're basically saying to people who like to loot run that their playstyle is not as valid or desirable as yours.

It is unfortunate that you think this way, Tanlaus. I guess that means we are at odds? Yes, I find in undesirable to have to circle grind certain Areas on a regular and consistent basis, a form of farming, and pretty much an OOC behavior REQUIRED in order to attain Epic Loot Items. I find it does go against an idea of a Role-play Server, in which Role-play should be the highest form of gaming, and what gives the highest form of rewards.

Do you disagree with me on that, in principle?

I like to loot. I guess you do not realize that. But what I do not like is umpteen Staff members telling me over and over that the RIG/Loot System has been upgraded to deliver better items, and I LITERALLY have not acquired one. single. item. of Epic Merchant Level power since the Rebalance.

And I play a lot, and regularly.

Back on point, what I suggest here is a system that rewards better loot—which is why everyone does go looting, right?!?—upfront, and thus very likely gives back RL Time to players to NOT be spending their time in an OOC looting circle, and investing more time in interaction. I'm not saying that loot-grinding cannot incorporate RP at all. Yet, how much interaction between toons can be had when running through dungeons and grind areas in a circle? Let's just be honest here.

So those who LOVE loot grinding, and that that is their preferred time spent on BGTSCC, will actually get their goods faster upfront. And if they reach tilt earlier, and then want to log off, what is the problem here? Because what I see as the solution is that those who would hardly ever like to loot-grind in the OOC manner that is now custom, and would like to slow adventure or not even adventure much at all, might actually have a fair chance at those 200+ new epic items.

I admit, those who are heavily invested in loot-grinding ARE acquiring massively more epic gear. Good for them! I'm not jealous. What I am frustrated about is that I'm being told again and again that I should reap the benefit of the Loot Rebalance, but I haven't seen anything better than before. So thus, a suggestion that would provide me, and those like me that I think are the majority of players on this Server, with a fairer chance to experience the fun. And not have to spend their precious RL time on an activity that is practically OOC from the outset.

We could, also, have an honest conversation about whether Staff actually WANTS a paradigm that is RL Time spend = Better Gear. Period. And that this method of "farming" is preferred for players to employ.

Cheers.

[Tanlaus]

But now you're basically saying to people who like to loot run that their playstyle is not as valid or desirable as yours.

It is unfortunate that you think this way, Tanlaus. I guess that means we are at odds? Yes, I find in undesirable to have to circle grind certain Areas on a regular and consistent basis, a form of farming, and pretty much an OOC behavior REQUIRED in order to attain Epic Loot Items. I find it does go against an idea of a Role-play Server, in which Role-play should be the highest form of gaming, and what gives the highest form of rewards.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling you out. I'm just saying there are people who like to go out and fight kill things and take their stuff. Just like there are people who prefer to stay around the campfire all day and chat.

Someone could equally complain that RP XP should be turned off at the campfire because it often doesn't have anything to do with adventuring. So why should your Barb/FB get better as a Barb/FB while sitting around chatting about Ducal politics, or the weather or that show at the White Mask theater the night before? I would disagree with that too.

I think my overall point is that taking a heavy handed approach to how people play will likely do more harm than good.

Macieus has a great post in this thread...

https://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=75389

That is about 'power gamers' but you could just as easily replace 'power gamer' with 'loot runner' in his response and it would read exactly the same.

I find I like most of the players who like to loot run. I also find I like most of the players who like to sit around the campfire and chat. Mostly, I just like the overwhelming majority of the players on the server. And I don't feel really comfortable judging how they play.

[Steve]

@Tanlaus and LazyTrain

Thank you for your comments. Why are you making this personal? Are you taking my suggestion personally?

Please explain to me how making it possible for better returns upfront FOR EVERYONE gimps anyone's playstyle? One can still run lootz all day every day, with my suggestion. Do you both, or singularly, really believe that the OOC large-time investment circular Area loot grind is the best practice that this Server can support for Players to acquire rewards?

I would also like to suggest, especially directed to LazyTrain, that if you have a personal issue with me, please be direct, instead of insinuations. Do re-read the OP, and what I'm suggesting. If you took umbrage with the jokey comment that mad lootz grinding equals a player with no real life, then I apologize if that poke went too far. But at least please be direct about your sensitivity.

[Steve]

I just don't think it's a good idea.

I understand that counter opinion. I have no issue with a straight disagreement. And your ability to state this is welcome. But you didn't just say that, did you?

Adding commentary such as "..to me, just a change driven on jealousy or being vindictive." is obviously MORE than disagreeing with the idea.

[matelener]

I understand where you coming from and I somewhat share the sentiment. Though, I wouldn't word it as "Diminishing returns" because that does sound you like your intention is for the system to be detrimental to some of the current playstyles.

However, what I personally think is the right focus, is to make the game less grindy and more dynamic by introducing new systems/bonuses on top of what we currently have. Wether it would be "luck" that you gain passively overtime and through RP that influence your drops by a small margin or difficult time-gated bosses (weekly? monthly?) with a special, better loot-table (take a page from MMOs).

In general, mechanics that open new ways, rather than close existing.