BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

[Steve]

I'm sorry; I still don't understand.

I'm probably not explaining myself very well, so I will try and by more detailed.

In D&D, role-play starts at Level 1 with 0 XP. All XP, all progression in D&D—and I'm talking about PnP-type D&D game—is Role-play based.

On BGTSCC, progression is not RP based, it is mechanics based. Thus, half experience the "difficulty" of the Server because they are not skilled in the game mechanics, and half find it "boring" because they have exceeded the level of knowledge it takes to easily progress through the game/server.

I could, and have, only played a PC to level 13. But what kind of game is that really, when there is no game after reaching any X level? What i mean by this is a game based on role-play and storyline(s), and not just that you inhabit a Character for X hours per day/week/month and just emote chat. I'm talking about the active game where there is a beginning and an end, essentially, a campaign.

Now, what I'm not saying is that it is impossible to have a best RP experience on BG. Because I've had it myself, multiple times. But it take so much damn work to create it. It requires a boat load of OOC effort, willing partners in other players, and a consistency and attention to whatever "flow" the players/group chooses (like, for example, not progressing outside of scheduled play times IN that group).

So what I mean about the Server not supporting "RP should not begin or end at 30" is that the concern of players is more progression to experience game play, versus role-play that flows with a storyline or interaction that is full and rich REGARDLESS of any need for progression.

On offer: I will STFU when I see a Level 1 campaign, as rich and full as Level 30 server/DM event campaigns, where the goal is achieving an role-play experience, and not just XP experience and mechanics-based action/progression.

[YYA]

The server's difficulty didn't change much over the years simply because the mobs themselves weren't touched. The last significant change was a slight scaling (in terms of level) of the mobs with your level and party size. The goal was to give people more areas to play with at any given level and provide a bit more challenge. Possibly because of a more complete mechanical knowledge of the server devs were unanimously thinking that the server was boringly easy and that this would be funnier for everybody.

Apparently not, and now there seems to be the unexpected consequence of people staying longer in the very same grind zones thanks to the scaling. We're going to collect some data for a couple of weeks to be sure of the diagnosis, if confirmed scaling will likely be reduced as well as some other ideas tweaked.

Speaking of monster scaling, what springs to the top of my head are the Mind Flayer spawns in the Underdark, which means that when these mobs are scaled upwards so does their Mind Blast DC go up as well. The increase may be just a point or two, but with low will save progression it is at times difficult to overcome this increased DC. And even if you only fail by rolling a one, well, the enemy mobs get their infinite attempts to force that unlucky roll. I know it is anecdotal, but when I tried to defeat those Mind Flayers few years back, after scaling monsters came in, even though I had 5-15% chance to fail at the save, every second encounter with a Mind Flayer left my character paralyzed, and this character had Steadfast Determination, Blackguard's Dark Blessing, Divine Champion's Sacred Defense -- thus when this character of mine finally overcame the increased Mind Blast DCs, he had already over leveled these areas and the scaled up monsters were back to their weaker selves. In other words, these several areas with Mind Flayers might not have existed for my character in the first place.

Other than that, I kind of do like the monster scaling.

Other than that and as it was noted a couple of times some character archetypes struggle somewhat, blasters, because mobs are indeed generally set with high HP. With reignite invocation that issue is much less important though and the issue can otherwise be alleviated by making areas with mobs who are weak against magical damage but not against physical.

Blasters are an easy example to bring up, but there are 'Role-play concept' builds that simply lack the the actual damage output to overcome the hit point bulk that some monsters may have here, and thus what another build could wipe out in but a single round, another might have to spend several minutes to defeat. The word tedious has been repeated here a few times.

Some other notes : save or die spells exist, why should PvE be devoid of any such threats ? The claim of such spells being widespread is largely false (completely false). Dispellers : same idea, we have so very few of them now, expect more not less, however with lesser CL, such as normal or lesser dispel. As for spellcasters with Bigby spells again they're not exactly widespread either and much like save or die spells they exist. NPCs casters typically have damage spells.

They do exist in D&D, but players on the server do not fight one of their kind per a weekend D&D session, the actual amount of is somewhere in tens and hundreds. Not to mention that by defeating such an enemy you might get something in between 1-50 points of experience, and if you make that unlucky roll you will loose out on 100-2900 points of experience. Which means that if you want to enter those areas, either you must be willing to loose all that experience without actually getting it back, or you have to come up with a character build that is flat out immune to all of the above. Which in turn, makes the server appear far easier than it is.

Thus the point of contention is not that these things exist, instead it is that for these players whose characters are missing the relevant immunity, these spell casters are not the rare 'boss' that might appear in one area, they are the generic mobs that can spawn in groups and wipe out the unfortunate lone player character. And as I do the quest grind, because I have always done it, on the surface you have the quest to fetch the Wyvern Egg. A potion of invisibility lets you get the egg from the nest without much of a hassle, but that area can also spawn in an Efreeti with either see invisibility or true seeing, and it is what makes the fetch wyvern egg quest more existing on a low level character that could be easily fugued by this creature. If it spawned every single time, I would not bother doing the quest unless the character in question was capable of taking it out -- but because it does not spawn in so often; it is a risk worth taking to grab that egg for the wizard's quest.

And yeah, there are areas without save or die effects, areas without dispels, or bigbies, but unfortunately in the areas that posses them, these mobs can be numerous enough to form a wall of certain death.

During the last years the power creep has overwhelmingly been in favor of players, through ever more powerful custom PRCs, ever more numerous epic shops, ever more plentiful loot and gold (despite the claims of some), ever faster XP gains. A consequence is that the power difference between a fully optimized powerbuild and a casual RP build with little money grew much larger than it used to be, resulting in plenty of issues for DMs as well as players rightfully feeling they have mechanically weak characters.

Which is why I have suggested for the addition of bunch of easier areas along the river Chiontar and as a new maze in the Varalla's Passage. The stronger characters could go there to get those easy over kills, but at certain point the excess AC, Damage, and AB, just do not provide a substantial advantage over the weaker 'Role-play gimmick' builds in the easy mode area. And should we consider how the stronger builds could get their better rewards from more difficult areas... there is now a spot where mechanically unsound builds could excel.

As for the quality of the areas, if you want to give it a try, just simple maps without specific details ought to suffice for first.

[YYA]

On offer: I will STFU when I see a Level 1 campaign, as rich and full as Level 30 server/DM event campaigns, where the goal is achieving an role-play experience, and not just XP experience and mechanics-based action/progression.

First Step: Ask for volunteers that are willing to create brand new characters for a DM campaign. These people must be able to play X amount of hours on a certain day of the week, at the same starting and end hour. These players can only play these characters on those specific hours.
Second Step: Ask if there is a DM willing to host them for X amount of hours on a certain day of the week, at the same starting and end hour.
Third Step: If the stars align, you got everything you need, and then all other players will complain about DM favoritism.

[gedweyignasia]

I could, and have, only played a PC to level 13. But what kind of game is that really, when there is no game after reaching any X level? What I mean by this is a game based on role-play and storyline(s), and not just that you inhabit a Character for X hours per day/week/month and just emote chat. I'm talking about the active game where there is a beginning and an end, essentially, a campaign.

Now, what I'm not saying is that it is impossible to have a best RP experience on BG. Because I've had it myself, multiple times. But it take so much damn work to create it. It requires a boat load of OOC effort, willing partners in other players, and a consistency and attention to whatever "flow" the players/group chooses (like, for example, not progressing outside of scheduled play times IN that group).

So what I mean about the Server not supporting "RP should not begin or end at 30" is that the concern of players is more progression to experience game play, versus role-play that flows with a storyline or interaction that is full and rich REGARDLESS of any need for progression.

On offer: I will STFU when I see a Level 1 campaign, as rich and full as Level 30 server/DM event campaigns, where the goal is achieving an role-play experience, and not just XP experience and mechanics-based action/progression.

In the absence of DMs, it's up to players to create their own stories. Builders can create a setting, but we can't impose a story on you. That's up to you. And you're right, it takes a lot of work to coordinate with others and make that happen.

As far as DMs go, the server plots do tend to be driven by high-level characters and combat, but that's beyond my purview. There are a number of DM plots around other levels of players. I've had only one Level 30 character in my entire time here, and I haven't felt left out of DM events or server plots.

[Steve]

In the absence of DMs, it's up to players to create their own stories. Builders can create a setting, but we can't impose a story on you. That's up to you. And you're right, it takes a lot of work to coordinate with others and make that happen.

As far as DMs go, the server plots do tend to be driven by high-level characters and combat, but that's beyond my purview. There are a number of DM plots around other levels of players. I've had only one Level 30 character in my entire time here, and I haven't felt left out of DM events or server plots.

I agree: player's need to create/forward their own role-play (not stories). Stories, and storylines, are something that can and should only be generated in a supportive environment, that being a environment that reacts to the role-play. We players can't just "make up anything." We are often simply limited to what we CAN experience, on our own. That IS what the Builders have given us (thank you all!!!), and but sorry, that is far too often an experience based on mechanics, not Role-play.

Caveat, yes, the environment "hosts" all the Role-play that players can muster. Well, not all...we still have the dying Forums for role-play, right?

To wrap up, the BGTSCC server isn't difficult to RP in, and it isn't difficult mechanically once one gets a solid OOC understanding of the game, of the design.

I would argue the actual difficult thing IS to get a storyline, or a story, going...from beginning to end.

[gedweyignasia]

I would argue the actual difficult thing IS to get a storyline, or a story, going...from beginning to end.

Plots don't always wrap up very nicely, but they all do end.

[Valefort]

They do exist in D&D, but players on the server do not fight one of their kind per a weekend D&D session, the actual amount of is somewhere in tens and hundreds. Not to mention that by defeating such an enemy you might get something in between 1-50 points of experience, and if you make that unlucky roll you will loose out on 100-2900 points of experience. Which means that if you want to enter those areas, either you must be willing to loose all that experience without actually getting it back, or you have to come up with a character build that is flat out immune to all of the above. Which in turn, makes the server appear far easier than it is.

Thus the point of contention is not that these things exist, instead it is that for these players whose characters are missing the relevant immunity, these spell casters are not the rare 'boss' that might appear in one area, they are the generic mobs that can spawn in groups and wipe out the unfortunate lone player character.

Ok, tell which monsters because I can't see.

[Hoihe]

They do exist in D&D, but players on the server do not fight one of their kind per a weekend D&D session, the actual amount of is somewhere in tens and hundreds. Not to mention that by defeating such an enemy you might get something in between 1-50 points of experience, and if you make that unlucky roll you will loose out on 100-2900 points of experience. Which means that if you want to enter those areas, either you must be willing to loose all that experience without actually getting it back, or you have to come up with a character build that is flat out immune to all of the above. Which in turn, makes the server appear far easier than it is.

Thus the point of contention is not that these things exist, instead it is that for these players whose characters are missing the relevant immunity, these spell casters are not the rare 'boss' that might appear in one area, they are the generic mobs that can spawn in groups and wipe out the unfortunate lone player character.

Ok, tell which monsters because I can't see.

Issue with Save or Die or Save or Lose spells on non-boss monsters is the following:

Quantity.

Last time I've been to the greypeaks I encountered... 7 fire giant mages.

That's 7 non-boss encounters with very powerful mages.

While Fire giant mages do not have save or die spells, they do have numerous spells that you cannot resist with either touch AC or evasion, leaving you with losing hundreds of HP unless you use a spell mantle (500 gp per scroll/charge) or walk around them. And sometimes, you can't even walk around them as they spawn on every path.



Now, the Reaching Wood gnolls I have not counted the quantity of spellcasters, but if I go and hunting for the boss, I do run into quite a few. And unless I have death ward, every such spellcaster means I might roll an 1 and instantly die.

In yuan-ti foothills, you got yuan-ti who can cast Destruction as a non-boss monsters in a dispel-heavy area, so even death ward is not a counter.

Frost giant mystics have Confusion, which while not Save or Die, if it sticks - you're might as well be dead due to losing control for 2-3 minutes spells that against a mage.


Vault of the Dead has Morhg bards spawn with very high frequency, and these bards got a spell they will spam on you making even HiPS dodge or any counter impossible as you're busy lying on the floor, then multiple dispels (good bye PfE!) followed by Confusion (which is prolonged death).

And sure, I might kill the morhg at the entrance. But I walk into the next section of just the first floor, and there's another! And all it takes is 1 mistake, 1 low roll to die in what's essentially a single round.

[yyj]

As a player all I can add to this discussion is that I hope the server is never made easier but rather harder.

[izzul]

As a player all I can add to this discussion is that I hope the server is never made easier but rather harder.

is it because you easily get bored after you know from OOC learning curve and lots of experiments and prepared earlier if anything happened?

what is the difference without UMD/spells/scrolls/elixir and with these preparations?

can you share some of the ways how each class can handle most areas . rogue, duelist, ranger, archer, assn, tips and tricks so they can share your same thoughts?

[yyj]

As a player all I can add to this discussion is that I hope the server is never made easier but rather harder.

is it because you easily get bored after you know from OOC learning curve and lots of experiments and prepared earlier if anything happened?

what is the difference without UMD/spells/scrolls/elixir and with these preparations?

can you share some of the ways how each class can handle most areas . rogue, duelist, ranger, archer, assn, tips and tricks so they can share your same thoughts?

Apologies in advance for the long answer.

When I make a character I look at a niche that I want to fulfill within the world. Understanding the limits of a character are very important to be ableto enjoy yourself.

This comes from experimenting the game world and just with enough time or asking veteran players.

None of my characters can really solo high epic areas at level 30 safely, yet I feel like just getting the right group is enough to beat the epic bosses like the white dragon.

I cannot say that I am bored of the content because it still represents a good enough challenge for me.

I am happy having a role in a group, not being powerful enough to solo a boss.

As for the UMD I think it's good but not necessary or OP, I like it just because it gives me a few more options , but saying that UMD or elixirs replace a wizard is just wrong.(again this depends on knowing the limits of what your character can do)

I will give an example with my ranger Florena.
She really cannot solo much epic content even though she is level 30, I can loot reaching woods and fire giants on my own by hiding from mobs, because of a lack of AC. I can maybe solo the lich at cloud peaks if I get lucky. She is very resilient because she can HIPS away from danger, has decent hp and has other escapes when other defences fail.
This build cannot solo balor, pit fiend, etc. Unless I spend around 20k gold or more in elixir and umd stuff, but I never do that because it's just not fun for me.

And being more explicit, knowing the limits of a build I mean, if you want to have a mechanically powerful character don't be afraid to ask around for help, not wanting to change server rules and difficulty just to make some builds be able to solo content. If you want an RP build then just go and RP, if you want a build that can do both please ask for advice as it is more constructive.

I am happy that the server direction is towards multiplayer and not soloing content and that is the main advice I want to give to others. Playing this way is more enjoyable.

A harder server will just make players play more in groups when going to a epic dungeon and making it more significant and fun.

[Valefort]

More difficulty and mandatory group play in general is not happening, as some players cannot group most of the time this would push them more towards powerbuilding or simply leaving. At best some encounters will be made more challenging while being purely optional and not more rewarding.

[Steve]

More difficulty and mandatory group play in general is not happening, as some players cannot group most of the time this would push them more towards powerbuilding or simply leaving. At best some encounters will be made more challenging while being purely optional and not more rewarding.

What is wrong with a design that DOES reward group play?
For example, the Giants dungeon in Troll Claws that requires multiple toons to open a door to progress? Now, you might just say “Well Steve, that’s just a number, mechanics, not role-play/group play.”

So then I say, the mandate must be more rewards FOR role-play. How about lowering mob XP and increasing Chat XP multiplied by a small fraction depending on Joined Party IG?

How about banning elixirs/potions/scrolls from the Consignment, requiring Players to roleplay with other players for purchasing such powerful goods, directly (because gee whiz Bobby, elixirs sure don’t make the Content trivial these days!)?

What this thread blatantly shows is that BGTSCC is host to 2 games: the mechanics game & the role-play game. Which one does the Administration want to be more important, to DEFINE this Server?

Mechanics and design will never satisfy. D&D wasn’t written to be that great overall, though at times it’s clever, surely creative, but altogether imbalanced, and DEFINITELY not meant to be played with Levels 1 and Levels 30 simultaneously.

What NWN2 provides is a digitally visualized environment for this creativity, but the engine is so unbelievably limited—in principle AND what is blackboxed—that solving mechanical issues is like a kind of mad futility. I respect the attempt, but in the end it’s just opinions.

The greatest reward is BGTSCC hosting role-play in the D&D Forgotten Realms. Role-play, towards creating stories and storylines (campaigns), requires an active environment (NPCs) and a bonus of players (PCs) willing to be a part. Within the limitations, and without a puppet master around for the Environment to come alive, the closest one can get then is where the Party/Group has to rely on its variety of Skills to progress the Campaign. Or, fail to progress, and swallow down failure with rounds of ale at Ye Olde Tavern (tavern chat XP multiplier please!!! Lol).

So please, why not make the greater rewards, with or without (greater) challenges, be the design paradigm? Why not steer players toward factions and guilds and party-up situations that require diverse skill sets? Why not have social skill DCs just like the instances where moving a Boulder requires a STR DC??

On top of then all this mechanics and design that “sits” 24/7 for the player(s) to find, if the foundation is set, then we may even see that finest result where the true D&D experience happens: players AND a Dungeon Master! Behold, the Game As It Was Designed.

But by this point, everyone involved will have been primed.

I know NWN2 was first and foremost a Single Player Game. But why would anyone want to continue to offer that in a 10+ old Server environment, I don’t understand it.

[YYA]

Ok, tell which monsters because I can't see.

And that is the crux of the difficulty problem, a monster that one character finds difficult could be a total pushover for another character. For example the Mind Flayers in the underdark can be seen as a complete and utter joke to any Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, or Ranger capable of casting Freedom of Movement, or any character that simply happens to be a Grey Dwarf -- where as my "Fighter/Frenzied Berserker/Blackguard/Divine Champion" with Steadfast Determination, Dark Blessing, Sacred Defense simply goes "NOPE" at the first sighting of a Mind Flayer. And the thing is, this character of mine will eventually overcome the Mind Blast DC, and in good consciousness I cannot request for the Mind Blast DC to be lowered simply because Mind Flayers are supposed to be absolutely terrifying encounters.

And if you want to hear about anecdotal encounters: I had not played on the server for few years, or NWN2 in general, so I have recently experienced quite a number of 'silly' ways to die. I had my level 11 dexterity based Dart throwing Fighter with AC of 36~ enter the first level of the Gnoll Cave in Lion's Way, and that trip quickly ended up with a visit to Myrkul. I tried to kill the gnolls at a great distance, which had worked very well outside of the Gnoll cave. But that was also when the fast mob respawn rate of the area actually wiped the floor under my character. After opening a door to one of the rooms on the lower left corner, I got swarmed with a mini-boss and his two-three cohorts, while two-three ran down from the corridor to the right, and as I tried to flee more shamans and occultists had spawned right behind me. The AC my character was no use against against their spells, and so I was trying to flee the cave with HP in the low red, and so my character died. When I later entered the same area with a level '9' character that had the Track feat, a 22 spell resistance amulet, and an elven archer in the party, the whole cave adventure was almost felt like a breeze. The only real hindrance was the number of Full-Plates my character found as the loot. And I have to say that the spawn rate in the gnoll cave is fantastic, you can just form a party and run around the first level and there will be enemies to slay. But I would not go there alone on a ranged dexterity build without HiPS, while any old warrior build would have great time.

And here I must also admit my own lack of sight, and it is a result of nothing else than my own game-play preferences. For example; I very rarely, if ever, play a character that makes use of stealth skills, and hence I cannot really comment on the current state of detection from the server mobs. And when it comes to dispels, if I make a caster character of any kind, I have pretty much always sought to reach the caster level of 30 as the bare minimum and thus have never really suffered from the dispels. As for the use of UMD, I have more or less always tried to avoid it, and I have often said how it is but a waste of gold if you actually know what you are doing.

Not to mention that character progression is not always linear. For example that "Fighter/Frenzied Berserker/Blackguard/Divine Champion" of mine will get +3 points of AB, +2 to all saves, the moment this character reaches the next level. And there are characters who have to wait a level or two for that +1 AB, or until level X to finally have access to some core ability which makes life easier. That second character that did not struggle in the Gnoll cave really struggled until he finally reached level 8 and acquired a level in a PRC that provided him some Weapon and Armor Proficiencies. He had struggled much less in a party, but that 8th level really felt like a day and night difference in all due honesty.

Which is why I have suggested for the addition of these easy mode areas, with mobs that basically have the standard NWN2 mob stats, which anyone could test out by just downloading Vordan's Hero Creator from the NWN2 vault and giving it a spin. Sometimes a player character just needs to reach that certain level, and the weekly quest exp grind, sitting by campfire farming RP experience, or going somewhere to fish for hours, just isn't something all players can stomach. Personally I do not mind the weekly quest grind, but sitting at the campfire for RP experience? I would rather go fish, which I have not actually done in half-a-decade.

[DaloLorn]

Ooh, dropping consumables from Mudd's would be an interesting shift... I like the sound of it.

That being said, I fear it may just drive some people to roll up their own personal alchemists and mule the elixirs over to themselves. (I'm not commenting on scrolls and wands, because most scrolls can be found at vendors anyway, and wands rarely make it to the AH anyway.)