Are Drow Babies Born Evil?

[MrSmith]

I like to make comparisons with real life because...

Please don't. Personally, I immerse in fantasy-based roleplay because it denotes a reality, albeit virtual, where right and wrong are easily discernable. You-the-player choose what role you want to play. You can be chaotic evil one moment and lawful good the next by simply logging in with another character. We-the-players like to discuss in endless detail the finer nuances of aliment, whether Drow children are born evil, etc. because we can. But please, let's keep the game out of the real world and vice versa.

Cheers!

[Azroth]

I don't know if lore touches up on being born evil, much like the fine details of food and sex in D&D.


Forgotten Realms ties in many tropes that are well used across many other settings.

Disregard Nazi's etc and look at the Drow from their eyes and you get why they are predominantly evil and why so many male drow are hardwired to obey the females of the race.

Not all drow are evil, period, full stop. Just as much as not all Tiefligs are evil, period, full stop. No argument there.

But other societies, and let's take Tieflings for example here! A Tiefling has a blood line that is very diluted and over god knows how many years back was a fiendish ancestor. They are not half fiends. And in fact Tieflings where made at the start intentional vague for players and DM interpretation, later refined by the help of fan base, etc.

Humans in FR will hunt Tieflings feeling they are monsters, as much as any other race normally. Tieflings do not trust anyone else and get bullied around with false prosecutions and more. They are predominantly CE a a result, same CN also take up the bulk like with CE. And they often lean to what will harm those who oppose them. The good ones will try and redeem the evil Tiefling or even CN's actions by trying to act good and show others they can in fact be good people, if allowed.

Chaotic represents the independent nature of these who do not trust nearly anyone (what orphan does?) giving them self reliant status.


Now take what you learned from the above... Humans and other races witch hunt Tieflings from appearance, just as much as Drow at times, regardless if good or not. Good drow, much like good tieflings are a minority however, giving them a near endless hatred to each others hunters and even themselves deepening on the society they live in.

The churches in fact not Loth or tied to such under her, are smaller clergies, giving Loth the bulk of Drow followers. They are often brought up into a society that makes them believe that Loth is the only god, as they want them to believe, given the number of males a hard wired view to Follow such traditions, etc, etc.

Regardless if born good or not, the society they live in is not and shapes them as they are.

[Moridin]

Hidden: show

[mastajabba]

Only Good Drow… is a Dead Drow

[Azroth]

Thanks for linking the drow of the underdark ad&d sorce book. I couldn't find mine. Glad you did!
(I recognized that text from either one of the two AD&D ones I have)

Hidden: show

[InsaniD]

Ok in my looking at this topic for a very long time. Now who is to say they see themselves as evil but other races are the evil? I even discussed this with my main IC and IG. And he has even went down there lol to study this. Cultures can view the world differently than say yours. But ib ny eyes it is how you view the world in a whole.

[Azroth]

Ok in my looking at this topic for a very long time. Now who is to say they see themselves as evil but other races are the evil? I even discussed this with my main IC and IG. And he has even went down there lol to study this. Cultures can view the world differently than say yours. But ib ny eyes it is how you view the world in a whole.

Evil is evil, evil is selfish, unable to see or comprehend the wrong they do with a lack of empathy to further their goals. In AD&D Evil often was related to cultures that are focused on warfare and other sort of nuances to the extent of despair, hatred and pain all linked into a trope of evil. And evil does not mean you are insanely dumb psychopath.

They may see their same alignment differently than good may see them, as much as evil may see other types of evil. As much as law and chaos see themselves different than others do.

There is no generalization of one world view on how things are done.

I hope that answers your question, I had somewhat of a hard time trying to pick out what you looked for somewhat in reading your question, but that seems to be the best answer.

EDIT: If you notice also in FR there's a trending trope among evil and good, and good wins the day. I fear that if you wished to know the little details of the nitty gritty, pick up a source book. You may not find everything, some things will be left out intentionally and or vague at times.

[Tekill]

I think we are pretty close to an answer.

Some of us are looking at the drow through the lens of a human being. Since I assume most of you are actual humans I would conclude that this would be natural. But it is a definite bias that will mislead us in our understanding other what other races/species/monsters are about. The take away I got from comparing the drow babies to human babies is that human babies being born evil would be rare.

We know that exponentially more drow are evil than humans. And we know or at least can make an educated guess that there is at least a higher chance that some drow babies are born evil. But the court is still out on if most drow are born evil.
I guess this thread could have been called: Are humans born good or evil. Is being born good or evil something that is fundamentally hardcoded in each of us at birth or are we all clean slates when we are born?

With humans we would have to look at it on an individual bases, baby by baby. But Drow, where evil is more common, we should be able to look at it as a trait they have. A few of you have stated that you believe the drow are born with a taint of evil like a sort of latent evil that makes it harder for them to overcome evil temptation and more susceptible to their evil society.

But since we know that the drow are a wicked race lead/created by an evil goddess, I wanted to know if the evil within a typical drow is as absolute in the same way as it is wtih a devil or a demon....or maybe an orc. Drow started off as a monster race, so....shouldnt it just be a part of them?
I don't like comparing drow with Tieflings because the Tiefs are generally more human than they are fiend. Teif's are plane touched. A drow is a Dark Elf. An evil elf.

But what it really comes down to is the evolution of the drow from a Player race from a monster race. Monster races, like demons devils, and orcs, were just naturally irredeemably evil. And therefor it was acceptable to slaughter monster races to your paladins hearts delight.
But drow have evolved a lot over the years. We are coming to a point in time where it is now even considered impolitically correct to say a drow is born bad because that would be considered racist. So we say the race is not evil, its the culture they are born in, that is evil. Creatures like devils and demons and undead not being playable are the exceptions and can be inherently evil......if you feel Liches are being prejudiced...then you will have to start your own post.

I found the following on: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drow

Unlike creatures such as orcs,[50] drow had no innate inclination towards evil, with their morality having been colored by their society.[46][51] "Good drow" made up about 15% of the entire race, although most of them weren't actually of the good alignment, being merely chaotic neutral or lawful neutral. Within Lolthite societies, even drow with a disposition towards what was considered good generally had problems developing a strong personal sense of morality. They generally behaved the same way as evil drow due to social pressure, as being soft in any way was lethal in drow society and often resulted in the death of such drow.[51]

No innate inclination. I guess this answers the question.

[MrSmith]

I found the following on: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drow

Unlike creatures such as orcs,[50] drow had no innate inclination towards evil, with their morality having been colored by their society.[46][51] "Good drow" made up about 15% of the entire race, although most of them weren't actually of the good alignment, being merely chaotic neutral or lawful neutral. Within Lolthite societies, even drow with a disposition towards what was considered good generally had problems developing a strong personal sense of morality. They generally behaved the same way as evil drow due to social pressure, as being soft in any way was lethal in drow society and often resulted in the death of such drow.[51]

No innate inclination. I guess this answers the question.

Your summary of this issue is outstanding.

...We are coming to a point in time where it is now even considered impolitically correct to say a drow is born bad because that would be considered racist. So we say the race is not evil, it's the culture they are born in, that is evil. Creatures like devils and demons and undead not being playable are the exceptions and can be inherently evil......if you feel Liches are being prejudiced...then you will have to start your own post.

This is why I would rather keep "real world" examples out of roleplay... I have a friend who will no longer play an Elf on this server because when their character treated Half-Orcs as their mortal enemy (consistent with lore) they were branded a racist.

Cheers!

[Steve]

Drow started off as a monster race, so....shouldnt it just be a part of them?

The issue I see here is the mix of OOC vs IC information. As the D&D editions progressed, and as the years went by and more and more people contributed to the expansion of the game world (Forgotten Realms), OOC expansion far outpaced what I would call IC expansion.

What I mean is this: going from 1e Monster Manual (1977) first mention of the Drow, to 1e Fiend Folio (1981) where OOC statistics are fleshed out, to 2e The Drow of the Underdark (1991) where it is written in a IC voice while expounding on OOC stats—a fascinating blend—to the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting where Drow are now a playable race...even as we learn more about the Drow via the Source Books given to us to consume, the attitude of the Drow, both harbored themselves and more importantly harbored against them, remains nearly the same: a monster race.

2e source books mention:

Some few (perhaps 15% of all) drow are deemed “good” (actually, most are better described as Lawful or Chaotic neutral in alignment) by other races. They look to the surface, and worship Eilistraee, turning their backs on the darkness their brethren have embraced.
It is not easy for a drow with a peaceful disposition, or feelings toward what most surface dwellers deem “good,” to develop a strong personal morality or even survive for long in the cruel, twisted societies of the drow cities.

Thus, it is absolutely the Drow Society to blame for the Evil that is ascribed to them. However, the 2e source goes on:

Only truly outstanding individuals (Drizzt Do’Urden, for example) manage to win free of drow lifestyle. They are the heroes—and, usually, the wandering adventurer-outcasts—of the race.
No “good” drow is yet known to have succeeded in turning the bent of a drow city toward good. Altering the smallest of customs and (dis)courtesies is impossi¬ ble without the approval and support of Lolth, who dominates most such societies. City dwellers are ruled by fear, deceit, and cruelty; it is impossible for them to act other than as the “dark villains” surface Realmslore makes them out to be, as long as they remain in the cities of the Underdark. Drow who leave cities are dismissed and ignored—except by drow merchants, who are glad to have drow surface contacts.
Drow who dwell in small roving bands, however, or who reach the surface and manage to establish an existence there, can and have adapted to local mores and conditions—and exhibit natures no more good or evil than the general run of humankind.

Snowflake of snowflakes, really. Yes, in principle, taking a Drow baby from its cradle and raising it in a temple of Eldath, will exactly have the greater effect on that personality.

BUT!!! When considering Drow in the Realms, so much depends on how the Drow are interpreted by other Races. The opinion, held steadfast by so many other Races, would exactly be that yes, Drow babies ARE born evil. Because 99.9999% of the time, any interaction with Drow is one of violence, or death, or violence from death, or deathly violence.

In RL terms, we use racist, or racism. But what we're really talking about is prejudice. As we on Earth are all of the same race. Human. In the Forgotten Realms, there are ACTUALLY truly different races, and so, imho, it's good practice to imagine our RL prejudice multiplied to the X degree, in terms of...well, all those negative things we associate with prejudice.

I'll just say I totally understand that for many players, even RPing prejudice/racist ways is totally uncomfortable. And beyond that, for the sake of "a good time playing a game," to do whatever needs to be done to NOT get negative. And I appreciate that.

So I would say, in the, Drow babies are born evil...depending on the context of OOC or IC position/thought.

[BloodRiot]

I have to add that I think this "inherent X" thing and "monster race" concepts sorta break down the moment they are considered a player race and are allowed as such. Player characters will always have their own will and agency, motives and goals.

The concept of monster races are meant as moral freebies specifically so a party of PCs at a table, ran by a DM can have fun without moral questions.

Matt Colville has some interesting things to say about this in the video below. A somewhat rough interpretation of his video is: Monster races should be something like a zombie. Effectively an evil magic created automaton. Matt also makes a good argument to only make such overreach judgements against factions, rather than races. I tend to agree with his point of view on many things really so ill just let him make the case much better than I possibly can.

[Tekill]

Humans are the worst and everyone loves zombies.
Got it!

[DM SummerBreeze]

Aren't all babies born evil?

[Azroth]

I have to add that I think this "inherent X" thing and "monster race" concepts sorta break down the moment they are considered a player race and are allowed as such. Player characters will always have their own will and agency, motives and goals.

The concept of monster races are meant as moral freebies specifically so a party of PCs at a table, ran by a DM can have fun without moral questions.

Matt Colville has some interesting things to say about this in the video below. A somewhat rough interpretation of his video is: Monster races should be something like a zombie. Effectively an evil magic created automaton. Matt also makes a good argument to only make such overreach judgements against factions, rather than races. I tend to agree with his point of view on many things really so ill just let him make the case much better than I possibly can.

Given how some other monsters races in AD&D are represented, yes, the players or at least the original idea was that Drow and countless others are perceived as monsters by design. I mean, if something goes bump in the night, must be drow or Tiefling, yes? Just as examples in that video how D&D was made at the time. In fact Drow, Tiefling and many other older races where in Monster Manuals, some and seen as good, but let's skip over that quickly...

The idea of Tiefling and Drow are the bed time stories told to children growing up like a boogie man of sorts, and heck, the deformities would be terrifying if someone was born with horns and tails, I mean, come on... imagine the accusations of the mother accused of consorting to have bore a half drow or even Tiefling, etc. They where never ment to be in the hands of players and some players will attempt to justify a means or excuse as to why some thing should be there, when it should not, in reality.



I did in fact refrace some things about Tieflings from AD&D in my first example above, just in my own words. : http://www.mojobob.com/roleplay/monstro ... fling.html

Ecology: Tieflings are often persecuted by humans and others; “If there’s blame, find a tiefling,” “Don’t ever make a bet with a tiefling,” and “If a tiefling didn’t do it, he was just pressed for time” are common sayings in Sigil. Naturally, this makes tieflings a little defensive around others, but it doesn’t make them band together, as it might for other oppressed races. Good tieflings are doubly committed to their cause, as if trying to make up for the race’s bad reputation.

Tieflings prefer to eat only meat, blood, bone, and marrow, preferably raw. They enjoy balaena blubber, gristle, and even roasted insects, which most races find disturbing. They drink strange concoctions of broth, oil, sulphur, and firewater, though they’ll hoist an ale with any bubber in Sigil if nothing else is available. When meat is unavailable, they can live for short perions on ashes, coal, and other mineral matter.

and we have the:

Habitat/Society: Tieflings have no true society of their own; they are the outcasts of the planes, cast out of the Lower Planes, not trusted in the upper planes. Though many of them gather in Sigil, just as many others try to carve out a home in their own planes. They don’t trust others (what orphan does?), but their self-confidence is nothing short of astounding: a tiefling is said to have swum the River Styx because no one told him he couldn’t, and another climbed to the fifth heaven of Mount Celestia before the archons noticed him lurking among the shadows and cast him into the Abyss.

Tieflings have a reputation as great but deceitful lovers. Their fickleness in affairs of the heart is legendary, and seems closely bound to their reputation as tricksters, liars, and frauds. Tiefling gamblers rarely find planars to fleece; they depend on the clueless and the young to line their pockets.

Though tieflings are usually loners, a charismatic and powerful tiefling sometimes gains a small following of like-minded, young tieflings who hope to ride his coattails. These packs are called “schools”, though they teach hard lessons. Each school serves to glorify its founder and protect its members — it does little else. Some schools operate as informal thieves’ guilds, others are mage’s societies, but almost all of them collapse when the founder dies. Some of them are remembered, like the School of Sergory, which has continued in a way, but with most of them even the name dies. Sergory was a master thief and mage, and other schools somtimes take his name to inflate their own importance. How (or even whether) Sergory met his end is dark, and best kept that way.

So while the logic may apply to some types of monster races, there are some more mortal than others represented with some more mortal and humanistic characteristic. In fact FR, if you pay any attention is one of the closest things we have to IRL in a fantasy setting. In fact D&D originally was made to be based out of a medieval Europe with swords and sorcery using exiting myths such as Dökkálfar and Svartálfar in some Dark elf representation similar tropes.

none of these concepts are 100% original, but inspired by existing then placed into effect.

I think some get caught up in the IRL vs Fantasy setting and looses sights of the between some days.

EDIT: in fact in plane scape there are good dark elves, not called Drow but more Norse like ideas found on Ysgard, Drow is very setting specific terms. But gives an idea what D&D looked like back in the day. But these creatures should be treated with xenophobia either way by some other races.

[MrSmith]

Aren't all babies born evil?

Only if you are Catholic.

https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/original-sin