Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2022)

[tharnok]

i find the changes to be a positive thing, that it all becomes PnP 3.5 rules, BUT with that said, you need rework the monster before implement the changes as the monster are made with those abilities and possible ac in mind from the player, and many chars will be pushed from getting hit once in a while to often, and some from often to get hit all the time now.

I see the changes as positive but they have a huge impact, so before you put them in, you need to balance the servers monster's for the appropriate lvl's when people can have what ac and defently in the epic lvls. Like i find when i just get in to epic lvls i get hit alot or at best just often with melee chars, without this extra ac i can have ill get hit all the time now.

[cosmic ray]

Ok, let me clarify something at least for myself...

I find a large portion of this update AMAZING. I really do. The grapple, the modes, the upgrades to KD and stuff, that's all super fun and good times.

But the loss of the AC, really is a deal breaker to me. An easily fixed deal breaker that requires me to completely restructure a character's build that I greatly enjoy to even try to approach the same level of effectiveness.

At least 50% of the playerbase think the same way imo, the melee changes are good and looks nice, the CE, ICE and tumble nerf has such a big impact that it overshadows the positive implementations.

it's a -4 ab / -4 AC for casters (tumble + ICE = 9 AC total, CE gives 5 AC, FD + tumble gives 5 AC), I find no similarities to describe the changes if not nerf

I agree with this, and I will add more: this update, together with other changes that have already gone in, will make BGtSCC feel like a new game with the same graphics. Twenty years after release, is it really wise to subvert game mechanics so radically? I like improving little things, but this is way more than that. Myself, I will be clueless as to how to play this game or even fix my chars after this update goes live; does anyone feel the same? I also predict NPC enemies will be eating us all alive fter the update. Well, maybe not all of us - duelists and parry fighters will do well.

[YourMoveHolyMan]

The sky is not falling, change is good and healthy, and much more preferred to things staying the same without.

That said, if you need help holler at me in discord and we'll talk builds.

[mrm3ntalist]

A 100% RCR will be offered to affected characters in this patch. More details will be given closer to launch.

That is a full rcr period for everyone, as these changes affect 99.9% of the builds. The 0.01% are the commoner builds.

What will happen to items that have the feint feat ( Rali's belt of mischief )? Will they get the improved version of feint in this example?

The sky is not falling, change is good and healthy, and much more preferred to things staying the same without.

It depends. Changes on mechanics without updates on the actual content ( new areas, bosses etc) will get very old very soon. This is not Dota 2

[AgentOrange]

A 100% RCR will be offered to affected characters in this patch. More details will be given closer to launch.

That is a full rcr period for everyone, as these changes affect 99.9% of the builds. The 0.01% are the commoner builds.

What will happen to items that have the feint feat ( Rali's belt of mischief )? Will they get the improved version of feint in this example?

The sky is not falling, change is good and healthy, and much more preferred to things staying the same without.

It depends. Changes on mechanics without updates on the actual content ( new areas, bosses etc) will get very old very soon. This is not Dota 2

There was an announced rework of the actual content. I understand the desire to pull the ceiling down, but it seems like a strange order to do that on build features and put a PvE content rework later on the docket.

[Ithilan]

i find the changes to be a positive thing, that it all becomes PnP 3.5 rules, BUT with that said, you need rework the monster before implement the changes as the monster are made with those abilities and possible ac in mind from the player, and many chars will be pushed from getting hit once in a while to often, and some from often to get hit all the time now.

I see the changes as positive but they have a huge impact, so before you put them in, you need to balance the servers monster's for the appropriate lvl's when people can have what ac and defently in the epic lvls. Like i find when i just get in to epic lvls i get hit alot or at best just often with melee chars, without this extra ac i can have ill get hit all the time now.

This tbh. otherwise the whole balancing act of builds vs. server environment will put us back in a 2011 state with about 3 build varities on the server I fear. I think the most possitive thing about this place is how many options have been opened up to people over the years with custom changes.

Many of these coming changes are possitive, but theres that glaring issue of AC reduction across the whole server pretty much and unless every mob loses 3-5 AB as well, that will be hugely upsetting to many builds and render many unplayable on their own. Now that may have some appeal to many players, since its a multiplayer game and D&D is very much about group adventures. But we play on a persistant world across all time zones and its not an option, nor a desire for everyone to always have to rely on others.

Or you will see a large influx of pure powerbuilds again and that is my greatest concern, here comes the HIPS archer army. I love to tweak my builds to fit a concept and RP and with the present scaling of the server you can do some really odd builds and do rather well, I will like Steve have to RCR every single one of my characters after this and probably delete half of them. While that probably wont keep me away from the server, it certainly puts a dampener on my motivation.

If things are done a bit too rashly and with out a proper testing phase and period for people to find their feet under these changes, theres a large risk of losing players for various reasons. Bringing things closer to PnP always sounds so romantic, but this is not PnP and it never will be and its far from a perfect simulator either, not all changes to cater to those rules are favorable for a community in a game like this. That being said, I look forward to seeing the full extend of these changes and so long as the staff is willing to listen and not set this in stone, I think common ground can be reached. But benefit of doubt and an open mind will go a long way.

What I truly dread the most is RCRing a character I last RCRed in 2016.. and then the other 10 ones afterwards

[AgentOrange]

i find the changes to be a positive thing, that it all becomes PnP 3.5 rules, BUT with that said, you need rework the monster before implement the changes as the monster are made with those abilities and possible ac in mind from the player, and many chars will be pushed from getting hit once in a while to often, and some from often to get hit all the time now.

I see the changes as positive but they have a huge impact, so before you put them in, you need to balance the servers monster's for the appropriate lvl's when people can have what ac and defently in the epic lvls. Like i find when i just get in to epic lvls i get hit alot or at best just often with melee chars, without this extra ac i can have ill get hit all the time now.

This tbh. otherwise the whole balancing act of builds vs. server environment will put us back in a 2011 state with about 3 build varities on the server I fear. I think the most possitive thing about this place is how many options have been opened up to people over the years with custom changes.

Many of these coming changes are possitive, but theres that glaring issue of AC reduction across the whole server pretty much and unless every mob loses 3-5 AB as well, that will be hugely upsetting to many builds and render many unplayable on their own. Now that may have some appeal to many players, since its a multiplayer game and D&D is very much about group adventures. But we play on a persistant world across all time zones and its not an option, nor a desire for everyone to always have to rely on others.

Or you will see a large influx of pure powerbuilds again and that is my greatest concern, here comes the HIPS archer army. I love to tweak my builds to fit a concept and RP and with the present scaling of the server you can do some really odd builds and do rather well, I will like Steve have to RCR every single one of my characters after this and probably delete half of them. While that probably wont keep me away from the server, it certainly puts a dampener on my motivation.

If things are done a bit too rashly and with out a proper testing phase and period for people to find their feet under these changes, theres a large risk of losing players for various reasons. Bringing things closer to PnP always sounds so romantic, but this is not PnP and it never will be and its far from a perfect simulator either, not all changes to cater to those rules are favorable for a community in a game like this. That being said, I look forward to seeing the full extend of these changes and so long as the staff is willing to listen and not set this in stone, I think common ground can be reached. But benefit of doubt and an open mind will go a long way.

What I truly dread the most is RCRing a character I last RCRed in 2016.. and then the other 10 ones afterwards

Seconding. <3 I think it would make sense to lower the ceiling on the PvE content, observe for a while, and then determine what build features ought to be toned down as a result.

[InsomnesCanis]

will improved parry work the same lowering the shift needed to counter-attack on Total Defense?
Will combat styles such as Athkatlan Triplate/Sembian Fencing/ Northlander Hewing work with Total/Partial defense?
what about classes who get Disarm/Knockdown/ Feint as class abilities, will they now grant the improved version?

[Tanlaus]

The entire meta on this server right now in regards to pve is low AB, medium to low AC, huge pools of HP and bloated saves. Which really screws casters.

Most half decent builds can walk through everything but the bosses and most strong builds can solo the bosses.

We really do need a pve rework, which Rhifox’s is working on, and which I know nothing about as of yet, so this is all personal feeling, but what the game needs is variety.

Should some stuff stay the same? Sure. But we should also have higher AB pve content with less HP or higher AC but not bloated saves so casters can use more DC spells or actually blast things.

Right now any group of 30s, or even half a group, can blow through everything on this server but the white dragon without much effort or any tactical gameplay. These melee changes not only won’t change that at all, grappling might make enemy casters too easy.

[InTheFlesh]

While I definitely am in approval of the overall changes (even as someone who plays a glass cannon rogue), is there any love for some of the really terrible rogue/sneak attack/misc combat feats on the horizon? They could definitely use some love.

By those feats I mean the likes of Awesome Blow, Staggering Strike, Battle Howl.

[Tanlaus]

While I definitely am in approval of the overall changes (even as someone who plays a glass cannon rogue), is there any love for some of the really terrible rogue/sneak attack/misc combat feats on the horizon? They could definitely use some love.

By those feats I mean the likes of Awesome Blow, Staggering Strike, Battle Howl.

I’m working on a list of things that don’t work/are criminally underpowered but there’s just a lot on the devs plates right now so I wouldn’t count on them being addressed any time soon. Never can tell though.

Deadly defense not being a passive was just brought up and it got fixed fast.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I'll be honest, I'm not sure how most of these changes will affect me personally. But I do know, that if those affected will get a 100% RCR, that's almost literally the entire server, if tumble no longer gives passive AC. Almost all of my builds consider tumble for the extra AC when I build them; even the ones where I don't unlock tumble as a class skill, just to squeeze that single AC out of it.

[artemitavik]

The entire meta on this server right now in regards to pve is low AB, medium to low AC, huge pools of HP and bloated saves. Which really screws casters.

Most half decent builds can walk through everything but the bosses and most strong builds can solo the bosses.

We really do need a pve rework, which Rhifox’s is working on, and which I know nothing about as of yet, so this is all personal feeling, but what the game needs is variety.

Should some stuff stay the same? Sure. But we should also have higher AB pve content with less HP or higher AC but not bloated saves so casters can use more DC spells or actually blast things.

Right now any group of 30s, or even half a group, can blow through everything on this server but the white dragon without much effort or any tactical gameplay. These melee changes not only won’t change that at all, grappling might make enemy casters too easy.

While again, I find a lot of the stuff with the maneuvers and such super neat, I will iterate once more that yes, these changes absolutely will alter what groups can handle or not.

4 AC loss in the epic areas is a massive dip, and yes, there are plenty of other "factors" in a build to make a tank, or dps, or whatever such as saves, evasion or not, what kind of attacks they have, buffs at their disposals, etc or the arguments that 52 AC is "perfectly fine" in non-boss fights in epic areas.

Except that it isn't. In short fights, or one on ones, or very small groups, sure. But how often does that happen? How regularly does the tank get swarmed, especially in small groups? Pretty regularly. And that loss of AC becomes critical. yes, there are other resistance methods, but far and away the most common method of brining someone down in DND is hitting them with pointy sticks. And this isn't a PNP tabletop game. I appreciate the effort (and there has to have been a huge amount of effort, holy crap kudos to Rhifox and anyone else who worked on this) but as there is no DM there 100% of the time like a PNP game, things go sideways really, really fast.

Given that, yeah, updating the Mobs is going to be a requirement or you're not going to potentially have a player base that does much of anything, because it's just not survivable. Lowering AC and then upping the AB of enemies is NOT a functional solution to make gaming functional on a day to day basis. DM events perhaps, but making a player less survivable and the enemies more deadly simultaneously is a terrible recipe. And no, it is not solved by simply using consumable buffs or traveling in larger parties. Party-grinding or adventure runs are not always an option for a plethora of reasons, and non-caster consumable buffs are regularly dispelled in the epic level areas by sheer number of dispels thrown your way. Sure, not every fight or mob in Yuan-ti or Duergar has people that throw effective dispels, but when you have the sheer number of mobs in fights that will cast it each once... and then the next fight one or two that can cast it... and then the next fight... you can and do burn through those consumables pretty fast.

[DaloLorn]

Lowering AC and then upping the AB of enemies is NOT a functional solution to make gaming functional on a day to day basis.

Nobody is raising NPC AB. Nobody is touching NPCs until the PvE revamp, largely because their changes would be undone later. (It's a lot of duplicate work, since both sets of adjustments would have to span all the mob blueprints on the server.)

Don't confuse Tanlaus' wishes (or anyone's wishes!) for implementation details until someone specifically says that's how it's going to be.

[cosmic ray]

The entire meta on this server right now in regards to pve is low AB, medium to low AC, huge pools of HP and bloated saves. Which really screws casters.

Most half decent builds can walk through everything but the bosses and most strong builds can solo the bosses.

We really do need a pve rework, which Rhifox’s is working on, and which I know nothing about as of yet, so this is all personal feeling, but what the game needs is variety.

Should some stuff stay the same? Sure. But we should also have higher AB pve content with less HP or higher AC but not bloated saves so casters can use more DC spells or actually blast things.

Right now any group of 30s, or even half a group, can blow through everything on this server but the white dragon without much effort or any tactical gameplay. These melee changes not only won’t change that at all, grappling might make enemy casters too easy.

If this is the goal, then I'm all for it; I just think that radically changing the very rules of the game to make everything work as close to pnp as nwn2 allows is excessive in achieving that goal. Couldn't things have been done by adjusting numbers on NPC and PC builds first? Say, like making some NPCs just a little tougher to beat in melee and just a little weaker to *some* spell lines, then see how it went.

By the way, I think the claim that there is no tactical gameplay required is an exaggeration - with regards to the surface, at least - , but it is true that certain party configurations can steamroll everything, excluding the white dragon and, arguably, the necro bard in Forest of Wyrms. This bard boss does indeed require careful tactics 100% of the time for 100% of parties, especially since the recent update that gave it infinite uses of mords, though it was already that way before.

The underdark is a different story, as even its strongest epic boss, the pit fiend, is a walk in the park requiring neither tactics nor skill to beat, even solo.