Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2022)

[AgentOrange]

robed caster cleric/monks and robed spirit shamans also come to mind. they dont get MI and displacement like arcane mages, so all ac is critically important. before someone brings up wands, we all know they are little more than dispel fodder. what happens to an offensive casting cleric with minor in monk if the ac changes go in? it's not a good outcome i assure you. ac would be too low. would be better off wearing armor and shield. so again, another type of currently playable character is removed from our realm of possibilities

ty for not including the ac nerf in the next patch. also, please seriously consider not putting it in at all. ty

edit: as for the other things listed, some look very interesting, but are overshadowed proposed ac nerf, and mode reliance, which nerfs ab. what happens when you have to use numerous modes, and get knocked down, and now, you, take attacks of opportunity to re-engage each mode one by one? does a stun or kd turn off all active modes? also, can we not add all these interesting things without nerfing ac and ab? can we not add all these interesting things without turning this into a mode-like mmo? nwn 2 has never been that. ce, parry, yes, but all these modes now. i'm sorry, but i am not a fan

Aside from tumble AC change which was already said to be postponed for reconsideration, nothing really forces you to use any of newcoming modes.
With the upcoming things as they are advertised, nobody get any AC or AB hit. Everyone gets free "crappy CE" and parry now gives AC in fact, but you or anyone are not forced to use it at all.
Modes don't nerf AB if you don't use them. And if you didn't use them prior the patch, you won't suddenly have to start using them after the patch.

i currently have 30 tumble and use CE. if all the changes were implemented i would indeed have to use two modes? ce wont stack with tumble in that case? meaning i would have to use fighting defensively to keep tumble ac and switch from ce to ath trip and use that mode as well to keep that ac, yes?

I believe you can't use Fighting Defensive (which has to be active for the tumble AC to take effect) and CE congruently. You would have to pick one or the other. It's not an upgrade to anyone who currently uses I/CE and tumble ranks as AC sources.

[zhazz]

robed caster cleric/monks and robed spirit shamans also come to mind. they dont get MI and displacement like arcane mages, so all ac is critically important. before someone brings up wands, we all know they are little more than dispel fodder. what happens to an offensive casting cleric with minor in monk if the ac changes go in? it's not a good outcome i assure you. ac would be too low. would be better off wearing armor and shield. so again, another type of currently playable character is removed from our realm of possibilities

ty for not including the ac nerf in the next patch. also, please seriously consider not putting it in at all. ty

edit: as for the other things listed, some look very interesting, but are overshadowed proposed ac nerf, and mode reliance, which nerfs ab. what happens when you have to use numerous modes, and get knocked down, and now, you, take attacks of opportunity to re-engage each mode one by one? does a stun or kd turn off all active modes? also, can we not add all these interesting things without nerfing ac and ab? can we not add all these interesting things without turning this into a mode-like mmo? nwn 2 has never been that. ce, parry, yes, but all these modes now. i'm sorry, but i am not a fan

Aside from tumble AC change which was already said to be postponed for reconsideration, nothing really forces you to use any of newcoming modes.
With the upcoming things as they are advertised, nobody get any AC or AB hit. Everyone gets free "crappy CE" and parry now gives AC in fact, but you or anyone are not forced to use it at all.
Modes don't nerf AB if you don't use them. And if you didn't use them prior the patch, you won't suddenly have to start using them after the patch.

i currently have 30 tumble and use CE. if all the changes were implemented i would indeed have to use two modes? ce wont stack with tumble in that case? meaning i would have to use fighting defensively to keep tumble ac and switch from ce to ath trip and use that mode as well to keep that ac, yes?

Tumble + Combat Expertise = +6 AC and -3 AB
Fighting Defensively /w Tumble 25 = +5 AC and -4 AB

Effectively you lose 1 AB and AC in comparison to now.

[EasternCheesE]

Hidden: show

Aside from tumble AC change which was already said to be postponed for reconsideration, nothing really forces you to use any of newcoming modes.
With the upcoming things as they are advertised, nobody get any AC or AB hit. Everyone gets free "crappy CE" and parry now gives AC in fact, but you or anyone are not forced to use it at all.
Modes don't nerf AB if you don't use them. And if you didn't use them prior the patch, you won't suddenly have to start using them after the patch.

i currently have 30 tumble and use CE. if all the changes were implemented i would indeed have to use two modes? ce wont stack with tumble in that case? meaning i would have to use fighting defensively to keep tumble ac and switch from ce to ath trip and use that mode as well to keep that ac, yes?

Tumble + Combat Expertise = +6 AC and -3 AB
Fighting Defensively /w Tumble 25 = +5 AC and -4 AB

Effectively you lose 1 AB and AC in comparison to now.

Just quoting a message from Rhifox a page earlier:
"Regardless, as said, the FD/Tumble/Parry stuff most likely will not be included in this patch."

No changes, no AC lost unless Rhifox says it's reconsidered.

[Blame The Rogue]

Aside from tumble AC change which was already said to be postponed for reconsideration, nothing really forces you to use any of newcoming modes.
With the upcoming things as they are advertised, nobody get any AC or AB hit. Everyone gets free "crappy CE" and parry now gives AC in fact, but you or anyone are not forced to use it at all.
Modes don't nerf AB if you don't use them. And if you didn't use them prior the patch, you won't suddenly have to start using them after the patch.

i currently have 30 tumble and use CE. if all the changes were implemented i would indeed have to use two modes? ce wont stack with tumble in that case? meaning i would have to use fighting defensively to keep tumble ac and switch from ce to ath trip and use that mode as well to keep that ac, yes?

Tumble + Combat Expertise = +6 AC and -3 AB
Fighting Defensively /w Tumble 25 = +5 AC and -4 AB

Effectively you lose 1 AB and AC in comparison to now.

which is why i am relieved all the changes are not being put in. would need to change from ce to ath trip. and losing 1 ab 3 attacks per round for 2 ac is a dodgy alternative

[Bobthehero]

it seems the primary concern with ac is warlocks with ICE? is the negative ab not applying to ranged touch attacks.

As warlock is the only class that predominantly uses touch attacks, it would appear that the decision to change the base game mechanic of not having I/CE affect touch attacks specifically targets warlocks with I/CE, even though warlocks have been using it without issue since the birth of the game. They're spells, you just chant and point, not strike with a weapon, so CE shouldn't affect them.

Pointing and zapping with RTA's, and for that matter, merely touching your enemy with MTA's, is a lot less complicated than trying to land a blow when you focus on your defence. The complication comes from casting the spell, and mechanics already cover that.

[YourMoveHolyMan]

it seems the primary concern with ac is warlocks with ICE? is the negative ab not applying to ranged touch attacks.

As warlock is the only class that predominantly uses touch attacks, it would appear that the decision to change the base game mechanic of not having I/CE affect touch attacks specifically targets warlocks with I/CE, even though warlocks have been using it without issue since the birth of the game. They're spells, you just chant and point, not strike with a weapon, so CE shouldn't affect them.

Pointing and zapping with RTA's, and for that matter, merely touching your enemy with MTA's, is a lot less complicated than trying to land a blow when you focus on your defence. The complication comes from casting the spell, and mechanics already cover that.

@blame correct, ICE has not been reducing ranged touch attacks asit should, effectively making a two feat investment a free +6 as c for warlocks

@agent orange correct, warlocks use ranged touch attacks, you don't have to rest to regain spells, you aren't limited by spell slots. Warlocks recently got a large boost, they do need this adjustment. Any melee fighter suffers a loss in a to receive this ac.

@bob that's covered by touch attacks not being blocked by most forms of ac

[Rhifox]

Aside from tumble AC change which was already said to be postponed for reconsideration, nothing really forces you to use any of newcoming modes.
With the upcoming things as they are advertised, nobody get any AC or AB hit. Everyone gets free "crappy CE" and parry now gives AC in fact, but you or anyone are not forced to use it at all.
Modes don't nerf AB if you don't use them. And if you didn't use them prior the patch, you won't suddenly have to start using them after the patch.

i currently have 30 tumble and use CE. if all the changes were implemented i would indeed have to use two modes? ce wont stack with tumble in that case? meaning i would have to use fighting defensively to keep tumble ac and switch from ce to ath trip and use that mode as well to keep that ac, yes?

I believe you can't use Fighting Defensive (which has to be active for the tumble AC to take effect) and CE congruently. You would have to pick one or the other. It's not an upgrade to anyone who currently uses I/CE and tumble ranks as AC sources.

Actually, this was my error. In pnp you actually can stack these, so if/when these go in, they'd be stackable. Obviously, that'd be a significant reduction in AB (-9 +10 if you have full Tumble, -9 +7 otherwise), but it would be a big AC boost.

How easy will it be to either permanently set the CE amount, and or change that amount on the fly (considering how vanilla CE/ICE was each a simple click on/off). And, can these modes be hotbar’d?

It uses standard spell/feat radials. So pretty easy. One extra click over the current form.



With regards to the AB hit, it was not intentionally targeted at anyone. It's a product of the fact that any new version of CE uses the EffectAttackDecrease function, which decreases all attacks across the board. That being said, it is how it always should have been -- there are multiple scripts that already try and make CE/ICE affect RTAs, they're just bugged and don't work (for example, the eldritch blast script tries to get whether you have CE/ICE on and reduce AB on the attack roll. Afaik, this doesn't actually happen in live, or if it does it's not displayed on the character sheet). So, the fact it doesn't affect touch attacks is a bug, not a feature.

On AB and AC in general, I'm looking at allowing people to select Epic Prowess and Armor Skin multiple times. These feats are supposed to be able to be chosen multiple times and stack (like Great Attribute feats), but that was never properly coded for NWN2.

[dakalb]

Tumble AC does not work with CE? I thought it would make sense for it to.

[Terankar]

Making FD and CE is perfect in my book. That is way better with a larger impact .

I shall name it, turtle mode

[CathyBlank]

Actually, this was my error. In pnp you actually can stack these, so if/when these go in, they'd be stackable. Obviously, that'd be a significant reduction in AB (-9 +10 if you have full Tumble, -9 +7 otherwise), but it would be a big AC boost.

That'd be nice! So at least taking CE for classes that have tumble as class skill and are inclined to max out tumble for RP won't feel like a complete waste of a feat.

Speaking of! Seeing how CE is often a requirement for many PrCs and that FD with high tumble can come close to its effects - are we going to have a revision on PrC requirements? Or, at least, a consideration of said revisions (provided tumble rework goes live, that is).

And thanks for such a big changes, they do sound like a big expansion to players' arsenal!

Also, are free versions of knockdown/bluff/disarm going to be given to mobs as well?

[Rhifox]

Also, are free versions of knockdown/bluff/disarm going to be given to mobs as well?

Probably not right away, as AI wouldn't know how to use the new scripts. Eventually it'd be nice, though.

As for PRCs, I don't believe most need changes. If there's anything that requires a removed feat, though, those would be changed accordingly.

[CathyBlank]

Fair enough! Thanks for answer

[Blame The Rogue]

tumble is a reactionary though. doesnt seem right to pin it to a mode that takes ab

you are fighting and someone swings at you, you tumble out of the way, or block with shield, etc. would be the same in my mind if you gave ab negatives to all shields. and no, please dont, on either, please

[BloodRiot]

Tower Shields DO have innate AB penalties. And all shields also take the offhand slot and have ASF and ACP.

And yes by focusing on not being hit by dodge or shielding, you are focusing less on hitting.

Tower shield
The tower shield is a veritable wall of protection, though it can be quite cumbersome to carry on an adventure.

AC Bonus: 4
-2 Attack bonus
Maximum dexterity bonus: N/A
Arcane spell failure: 50%
Armor check penalty: -10

- https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Tower_shield

Edit;reworded statement to be more accurate.

[YourMoveHolyMan]

Heavy shields don't have an AB penalty, just tower.