Update on Open question to team evil/morally questionable

[Dolorof]

Is this topic still on track with its original post? Its honest quite hard to understand what this is about currently.

[Rain]

Hidden: show

I think that this thread is a waste of time, effort and energy - but I will contribute - because some part of me still does care.
Now to answer the question in the first post..

It has been on my mind a bit of late so I thought I would pose this question to the ether, to maybe touch base with other questionably moral folk on the server. For the sake of maybe having a bit of sounding board, how do you other fine folks feel about the server right now?

I feel like the server is dead/only caters to a certain playstyle or specific groups of people.
I'm told that If I want DM attention, I need to RP more... Bro - I can't even get a three letter response "Yes" when I want to post an RP event on forums (don't want to god-mod npcs).
I said f**k it after ten days and posted it anyways.. To this day - I still haven't received a response to the original request nor have I received disciplinary action for god-modding on the post. You know what that tells me? The RP doesn't matter.

In the sense that I am curious about how others feel about their ability to run around and be naughty. Do you find the state of it fulfilling and enjoyable?
And of course what would you like to see improved specifically if you think it could use some?

On this server - I don't particularly find it enjoyable - it feels like you are walking on thin ice out of character when it should be in character. Certain players/groups may dislike your particular line of RP and will make an effort in trying to undermine you as a player by destroying your rep or accusing you of falsities. If you decide to take the route of player antagonist - you must accept the condition of being the losing party at the end. If you refuse to be the losing party, you will be ostracized from the server.

Im really just wanting to gauge how everyone on this side of the fence feels about their ability to function and in what ways they would see it improved. Whats wrong with things, whats right with things etc etc.
And honestly if folk could have their ideal scenario, what would it be like?

• More player autonomy in-game.

• Remove forums/forum RP requirements.

• More consistent communication from DM team regarding requests - I shouldn't have to wait weeks and weeks on end for a response - and still only be left on "Read" - then get fed up and break the rules by god-modding.

• More consistent event approvals from DM team. Currently it works on the basis of a DM will only take on an event if they are interested in it - otherwise, good luck.

Edited to add:

• Remove Tells and all OOC communication from in-game. Tells and OOC should no longer be allowed in-game.

• Remove IG knowledge of things from discord/forums. Records should be kept in-game in the form of player run newspapers, books, notice boards, etc..

I really can keep going on and on with this list...

Now, on the other hand I've been playing on Arelith (nwn1) recently - and I think BGTSCC should take some cues from them.

Example:

9 players vs 127 at exactly the same time (not counting PGCC - that's their version of Jegs). These two screenshots were taken at the same time yesterday. (10PM PST)... Obviously they are doing something right...

Another Arelith Example:

• I've been playing on the server for 3-4 weeks now.. I'm already level 30 - it was a complete breeze and enjoyable to level.

• I've already started up a guild (UD Based Sharran Sect)

• I already own a mansion/guild house in-game and am furnishing it with appropriate guild related gear.

• I've only needed DMs twice in regards to technical related issues - and response time was outstanding (Immediate to 3 days)

Compare this to BGTSCC...

Now...
Just as some people said - same issues have been brought up for 5+ years and barely any change. What makes you all think that another complaint thread will change anything? I've told some friends multiple times - this is a sandbox that belongs to a certain group and caters to a certain playstyle, rest of us are just guests. If you want to play here, and play against the status quo, you need to come to terms with that arrangement.

DISCLAIMER!!
This is just my perception + opinion of the server, its not an attack - its meant to be constructive criticism.

Another Edit:

Great example of walking on thin ice OOC.
I just walked into Soubar (literally 5 min ago) - noticed a group of individuals fail a teleport. My character claps at the failure and has an acid bomb thrown at them..
Now - If I reacted and killed the individual who threw the acid bomb, how much OOC drama would arise from that? Would I be labeled a pvp monger and potentially banned from the server?
(and no - I do not want to report the individual who threw the bomb. If that is something that they consider in character for their PC - then so be it.)

I feel like the server is dead/only caters to a certain playstyle or specific groups of people.
I'm told that If I want DM attention, I need to RP more... Bro - I can't even get a three letter response "Yes" when I want to post an RP event on forums (don't want to god-mod npcs).
I said f**k it after ten days and posted it anyways.. To this day - I still haven't received a response to the original request nor have I received disciplinary action for god-modding on the post. You know what that tells me? The RP doesn't matter.

There is a reason people are so quick to jump ship whenever a new nwn2 server drops promising all of these qualities BGTSCC lacks and other servers showcase.

DND at it’s core is a game that is suppose to provide freedom of choice. It’s been clear for years that BGTSCC lacks these freedoms when it comes to choices that go against the planned outcomes of the server, DESPITE overwhelming player approval and efforts to make such happen.

All in all, reading post from this thread make me realize just similar many other players here detest how things are handled from both sides of the fence. People want to enjoy the freedoms of DND as a game FIRST AND FOREMOST. They don’t want to be suit and tied into “Business Day” responses and treated like clients instead of players.

Half my time on server is me planning out fourm post, keeping data relevant, and responding to PM’s on the fourms to make plans for things WEEKS if-not, MONTHS in advance… Just to appease the staff to get things to happen in-game. Non of that is fun, but I had to sacrifice my time to do it so that my guildmates had things to look forward to in the future.

[Young Werther]

Is this the thread where everyone checks in a couple of years or so? Checking in...

[metaquad4]

Half my time on server is me planning out fourm post, keeping data relevant, and responding to PM’s on the fourms to make plans for things WEEKS if-not, MONTHS in advance… Just to appease the staff to get things to happen in-game. Non of that is fun, but I had to sacrifice my time to do it so that my guildmates had things to look forward to in the future.

Yup. And AoS even confirmed that in their response - in order to get things done, you paradoxically don't actually play in game. You play off the server, you write on the fourms or toy with the toolset. I actually do agree with that, you can get a lot done on BGTSCC that way. Most of the actual "pushing" comes from off-server activity.

I just happen to play nwn2 (and now nwn1 as well) for the IC. I'm happy to report bugs and help out QC-side, but that comes from playing in game for the most part (with the exception of testing some specific things like new features, which I actually enjoy doing). I don't enjoy the sheer volume off-server activity that advances in game ends. Not just fourm RP, but documenting your RP, taking screenshots, constantly communicating with the DMs in PMs. I didn't come to nwn to play office instead. Though if I'm being honest, that is a poor comparison - I'd much rather do my actual IRL work than do the out-of-game nwn2 work stuff.

IDK, maybe nwn2 (or BGTSCC) lacks the tools to make things happen in game as smoothly as it seems it can happen in nwn1.

I guess that is why I'll have to accept I won't be personally making any headway on anything in BGTSCC. I'm happy to support others in doing stuff (like doing some admin-y stuff, though even my motivation for that is waning) but at the end of the day I personally will not be able to do any personal plots or push any guild events.

It is what it is. I'm at my happiest when I keep my RP purely in game I think. Which just doesn't mesh well with the system we have here if you want to do stuff.

[DaloLorn]

Though if I'm being honest, that is a poor comparison - I'd much rather do my actual IRL work than do the out-of-game nwn2 work stuff.

I agree with a lot of your post (though I still push myself to do some of the paperwork), but this part in particular resonated with me, and I can't adequately describe why. Could it be a contamination of sorts, tainting your entertainment with the very essence of what you were trying to unwind from? I don't know...

[Steve]

But of course we are all primarily here for the IG, IC experience that BGTSCC—or any NWN2 Server for that matter—has to offer. But there are some factual needs for “off server” activity.

The main one I’d say is SHARING your role-play experience with the Community, especially those that couldn’t be online with you. There is years of amazing RP and RP documentation on the Forums, and it really gives so much toward FURTHERING even more role-play.

The close second in importance of off-server activity is EXACTLY about furthering personal/guild/event/DM activity, which again makes it possible for RP activity to be recognized. The D&D game needs a dungeon master, but if the DM(s) have no idea about the RP, how are they supposed to help us?!?

In a perfect world, all we would have to do is ring up a DM and confirm a date & time in which all participants log on and the Roleplay just unfolds IC and that is enjoyable by all until we log off. Then we all sit back in our chairs and go “ahhh…roleplay success!” But just take into account that on BGTSCC, likely half of your mates are in another timeline, half have jobs and or kids—same thing!—and the third half are DMs spreading themselves thinly for everyone’s enjoyment.

I do realize that Forum-based investment and logistics is not for everyone, and I appreciate that. But I also appreciate that there is a clear structure for success, and it’s not a very high bar either.

That said though, we must recognize that animosity and subjective dislike simply gets in the way of support, and if anyone, players or DMs, don’t like the other for whatever reason, there will be little success, little support. That’s just the human nature, and, people aren’t being paid for this shit!!

Likely, what BGTSCC needs, is more DM support for the various groups and RP interests. But honestly, that’s ALWAYS been the case for BGTSCC. There is not much of a solution to this problem unless the approvals are loosened. Or, more levels of hierarchy are setup, so that a group of “DM Lite” can get onboard and show there worth. Just a suggestion.

[DaloLorn]

I mean, I understand why we need to do all the paperwork. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Louvaine]

There's no way DMs will catch your IG role-play. Even if they devoted their entire DMing time to this, and only this, they would still miss a lot of it. The need for documentation is always going to be there, there's no going around that.

[metaquad4]

There's no way DMs will catch your IG role-play. Even if they devoted their entire DMing time to this, and only this, they would still miss a lot of it. The need for documentation is always going to be there, there's no going around that.

The question is degrees of documentation and for how many things you need it, I suppose.

I don't need documentation to craft items, own a shop, own a boat, own property, or even break into other people's property in. . .other places (Arelith). For example. Mechanical systems are in place to enable players to do all of that on their own (and so much more). I like that.

Plus, like I said. That kind of player empowerment frees up DMs and staff to do other stuff.

The need for excessive documentation is a BG-specific thing. I've never played a server where I felt as pressed to do as much soul-crushing work as BG. Hell, the only reason I came was because of the player count and the only reason I've stayed was for the friends I made along the way. I'm not here for BG, I'm here for the people who play BG.

Sigil. Tales of Amn. Port of Shadows. Hell, even Dalelands Beyond and flipping Haven. I hardly touched the fourms in any of those and I felt I got way more done than I did in BG. I felt like I was able to do more too. Hell, Haven even has some of the automation stuff I mentioned above.

[Rain]

There's no way DMs will catch your IG role-play. Even if they devoted their entire DMing time to this, and only this, they would still miss a lot of it. The need for documentation is always going to be there, there's no going around that.

Same way there is 0 garentee the DM’s will acknowledge any RP you place on the forums either. There have been plenty of godly post iv’e seen on here from extremely talented writers/story tellers who have been given nothing to work with despite their amazing dedication on both fronts.

[GholaMan]

And all those places are literally hundreds of miles away. This is how Western Heartlands are even described in the lore, btw. A "miles of miles" of mostly uninhabited and lawless wilderlands, sparsely specked by insular, independent towns, villages and homesteads. With occasional bubbles of civilization surrounding major city-states like Gate or Elturel.
And of course, these city-states have power and can project it, but as Saharez pointed out, military campaigns require resources and logistical organisation. Let's not pretend that Elturel or whoever else needs to throw a ton of gold and divert a large portion of their forces from usual duties by sending them a hundred miles forth into untamed wilds just because they felt threatened by a backwater caravan town replacing few of the tents there with permanent builldings. Or worshipping gods they don't like. Or being partial to trafficking some relatively minor volumes of illicit goods, or whatever kind of "growth" Soubar can sensibly have. I mean, I don't mean they can't but they also don't have to. Eventually, it is in DM team discretion how to handle it, but lore, at least as I see it doesn't seem to imply any kind of inevitability, instead it feels much more flexible than that.

Lore tends to be used as a bludgeon when it aligns with people's views this is routinely expressed on the server's history. But this is just one problem, If i were to say what I want to see happen on the server as someone who primarily plays evil drow is that what we want is player agency. I will repeat that WE WANT PLAYER AGENCY. If a buch of do gooders want to come burn down the black abbey and kill all the malarites in Soubar they should be allowed to do so. While according to the server rules and policy that is allowed, in practice its more like post on the forum for a few months, put in a DM request and wait for DM oversight because you cant do ANYTHING on BG without DM oversight except for grinding and interpersonal stories/conflict. Want to make a new trade route, DM oversight, build a house, DM oversight. Name one thing that we can do outside of grinding and just general RP that does not involve a DM.

And people sit around and headscratch over why the DM team is so backed up and can't really get anything done like its rocket science. Maybe because the way the servers rules are set up and whatever bureaucracy is going on DM side is asinine and pointless. You want to see that X group of people have been RPing to make an outcome happen. How about screenshots instead of constant forum posting, this notion that some work needs to be done outside the game is really pointless. Really what is stopping people from walking into soubar and just murdering mag in her tavern? Rules. Just server rules. You know, rules that actively prevent people from shaping and interacting with the world.

The world of BGSTCC has been stagnant for years, sure the occasional guilhall pops up, or even a town. But what Impact do I as a player have on this world, little to none even with my main having quite a lot of political and military power within the structure of Sshamath. Why because we all need to wait around for the DM's to give approval, even with poltical and military power the answer then is no, you cannot shape or impact the world unless someone else approves of it. Implicit approval of doing so should be part of being in those positions, but it isn't. Its treated as a trophy, by and large at least from where I am standing and my own experience.

[Bluh]

Got some really intense months RPing the Auril war just recently. Our temple is gone and we will now start building a new one. DM Mimic was responsible for the plot and gave us all the freedom we could've asked for. I think in the two months of really intense RP i had going on, all i needed was one or two reqeuests that really needed a DM to move on.

Results of the event are there for anyone to check. (Cloudpeak mountain)

[GholaMan]

Got some really intense months RPing the Auril war just recently. Our temple is gone and we will now start building a new one. DM Mimic was responsible for the plot and gave us all the freedom we could've asked for. I think in the two months of really intense RP i had going on, all i needed was one or two reqeuests that really needed a DM to move on.

Results of the event are there for anyone to check. (Cloudpeak mountain)

In other words you had a DM implicitly looking over your RP. I don't think this should be a requirement.

[Ghost]

In other words you had a DM implicitly looking over your RP. I don't think this should be a requirement.

How do you propose NPCs and the world in general react in any way with depth and meaning without a DM puppeteering them?

[GholaMan]

There's no way DMs will catch your IG role-play. Even if they devoted their entire DMing time to this, and only this, they would still miss a lot of it. The need for documentation is always going to be there, there's no going around that.

More like document then wait around for approval of said actions.

How do you propose NPCs and the world in general react in any way with depth and meaning without a DM puppeteering them?

I don't think it is really as important as you think it is, I'm sorry but PC>NPC's. NPC's and the world in general don't react in any way or depth for most RP that takes place on the server. Which is why I say there are two things you can do without DM supervision, which is grind, or interact with other players. That is like 90% of the RP that takes place, the other 10% is a combination of forum RP and waiting around for said forum RP to get the DM stamp of approval.

But ill get down to my proposal, how about this instead of implicit denial of actions until approved by a DM we have implicit approval by a DM unless otherwise stated. This would greatly reduce the amount of work that a DM has to do. So instead of sitting around waiting for a DM, I could just do my thing, record it, post it. If its egregious DM can say no. Or hold on, I need to control an NPC for this.