Stealth Icon

[Ewe]

So if I understand right, your solution is to manually click on each and every person that's visible to you in order to check if they're currently hiding?

In DnD, the DM says "Roll Spot for me." You roll. If your result beats the DC, the DM tells you what you see.

That same process is happening behind the scenes in NWN2. The difference is, you're not being told what you spotted. That's a core issue. Imagine a DM who describes the world around you but never tells you what you noticed or failed to notice. It breaks the logic of the game.

Now imagine that same DM lists everyone you see, and you have to ask, "Which do I see but are actually hiding from me right now?" It doesn't make sense. The point of the Spot check is to resolve that question for you. If the game doesn't tell you the outcome, the skill loses its meaning.

It's not immersion, it's incoherency.

[RoseFrost]

So if I understand right, your solution is to manually click on each and every person that's visible to you in order to check if they're currently hiding?

This is preposterous. The vast majority of characters are obviously not stealthing because they're standing out in the open having a conversation, or fighting with something, interacting with NPCs, etc. This has always been about preventing rare edge cases.

[JustAnotherGuy]

If there is a way to inform the spotter that they spotted a person in stealth without the icon, I'm all in favor of that, and don't mind it. It could be similar to the "You spotted x picking the pocket of y", or, "You see x concentrate momentarily and move away with blinding speed". Now, there would still be a small issue with that, in that the spotter would have no clue if the stealther came out of stealth, but that might be able to be solved the same way. I am not a coder, so I have no clue how hard it would be to do this.

I want to reiterate that I am not saying that the current iteration is the only way things should be done. But I am saying that we need something to inform the spotters that a person is in stealth and/or came out of stealth. If I recall correctly, it was said by the dev team before that having an icon on the spotter's screen and not on the stealther's screen is not possible. This does not mean that we cannot explore other avenues. However, the icon is lightyears better than nothing. And even the input of current stealthers in both this discussion and the one two years ago shows that (of those speaking up on the forums) the majority of stealthers agree with or are ok with the current iteration, as long as it works and isn't bugging out.

But, if it makes other people happy, and does not detract from the experience, then I'm for it. Explore other avenues.

As for the active feat idea, it was said it was preposterous that you would have to check every single person. But in my experience, it would literally be that. If there's even just one bad RPer that walks up in stealth and stands near people as if they belong, then the spotter can no longer trust that anyone standing anywhere is not in stealth, unless they are speaking in a normal voice. I even had one person admit to me a few years ago (before the icon was implemented), "I tell stealthers all the time, that if you want to remain undetected, just walk up as if you are not in stealth, and the spotters won't know." So, while your active feat seems a good idea at first, it falls apart with even just one bad actor. Unfortunately, the indications need to be based on a passive system.

[renshouj]

Removing the icon outright is not in the picture, simply. We could look into changing the icon to another, maybe lowering opacity, maybe diminishing size, but we're not removing it.

Unfortunately other, more elegant, solutions run into a lot of technical issues of not even being doable properly, so we can't really count of overhauling stealth mechanics.

As for the bug of the icon lingering after the person drops from stealth, if you've experienced it it'd be great help to investigate and report the bug. How to duplicate it, what scenarios, timers, etc., only then the dev team can properly investigate it.

[selhan]

Here let me paint the picture ...

Just Whom...
Does this stupid ugly icon...
Work for?...



Because its Obviously Not the Druid Spotters that's seeing it ...

But the sneaking Hisper ALWAYS IS!

ITs NOT on their screens Its on mine! It ruins my screen shots, its in MY FACE, its on MY SCREEN! It's not annoying them, but its annoying the shit out of US that DONT like it! That Didnt want it! That didnt ask for it!

Understand people? Get it?

So Enough back and forth. MY QUESTION IS...

WILL THE ICON BE SUBJECT FOR REVISION/REWORK/ALTERATION/ REPLACEMENT OR SOMETHING BETTER OR REMOVED?

[Ewe]

Hey Selhan, I appreciate your enthusiasm and passion, seriously. But is there any chance you could share your thoughts without ALL CAPS yelling and theatrical dramatics? Just trying to keep the signal-to-noise ratio healthy. Thank you!

[Winterborne]

It's unfortunately not possible to have it be only on the spotter's screen (technical limitation).

Most of the better options aren't possible either - there's no way to add a new "stealth" animation, so that your character appeared crouched (my personal preference if we could have something like this), for example, or something else that shows you as doing anything other than standing there perfectly in the open (which is stupidly how the game has someone sneaking appears to a spotter).

If any of the folks who have said that they have the icon appearing over them long-term when they aren't stealthed have any ways or tips to duplicate this it might help that get fixed, but as someone whose main is a dedicated sneak, it's not been something I've ever experienced.

I personally am a dedicated sneak who likes/prefers the icon because when I spot someone I don't want to out them if I recognize they are trying to be sneaky by waving hello.

[selhan]

"when I spot someone I don't want to out them if I recognize they are trying to be sneaky by waving hello."

Handy thing that, yet while others want the sneakster to *Out themselves* by Emoting their sneaking or showing that ugly icon (Which wont even be seen by the spotter if they cant even spot them).

General rule - I dont have to Roll for players, and I damn sure dont have to Emote to other players. If they dont see shit, I wont out myself by tell them they dont see shit. I'm not the DM. If I was stealthed and someone spotted me, and emoted they do, I will reply respectfully in what they see. For those that dont reply and try to play off that their afk or whatever else..then hey remind them any rp they seen while AFK is Meta. And not valid. They got issues , they can take it up with the DM's.

All I pointing out is the Icon is Stupid Ugly. And OFFICIALLY requesting to Remove / Replace it with something that wont annoy or irritate, or immersion break.
I remember someone proposed a different Icon a year ago, Seem to fell on deaf ears or eyes that dgaf. Well its a new year and some of us is sick of it .

[Goat]

I would love it if hiders didn't see their own icons yeah - but right now it's not possible. Being able to disable them would be 'great' but there isn't a specific way from what I can see right now.

We aren't changing the mechanics completely, as people have suggested here. Not what the intentions are. And from what I can see in the previous threads it was not exactly disagreed by many. Most agreed on it.

Perhaps a less strong icon - or some other way, but it needs to be apparent. It 'does'. Because someone can be hiding, and it's impossible to know if they are or not specially if there just sitting around you.

What icon was proposed? Changing the icon could be something quick for now - but that doesn't change the fact of an icon. I wouldn't mind if you were always crouching slightly when sneaking like when you move around so it's noticeable but that probably isn't easily do-able either so probably the icon change is the best bet for now. But show me the icon anywho.

A VFX skin could be possible but there might have an issue with how VFX skins work when you have buffs on you. I get it that most sneakers aren't buffed but its still a factor.

Also I do think you should be a little less hostile. I get it's an annoying thing to you but I'd rather the post just be constructive about everything.

[Necrotic Shadows]

As both someone who has a character for stealth and one who can detect stealthers, these are my takeaways:

The Icon is unnecessary. Great example, the delay on someone coming out of hiding makes me question whether my character is seeing/hearing someone, or they have chosen to end stealth. It can take up to a whole 5 seconds for them to show fully if coming out of stealth. The icon manages to slow your reaction. Example of where this is a problem: Aidan got attacked by a drow surface side. I could make their outline. They did rp it even though they honestly didn't need to. But had they not, they were close enough that I wasn't sure if they came out of hiding and it just didn't end yet, or if they were moving in for the kill. Again, a delay issue.

From a stealther's point of view, I don't need that icon to prove I'm hiding. The vast majority of the players have spent years functioning without it. Now I get that feeling of a fly buzzing around my head when I'm used to the way things were.

In the end, I'm not a fan.

[Goat]

As both someone who has a character for stealth and one who can detect stealthers, these are my takeaways:

The Icon is silly. Great example, the delay on someone coming out of hiding makes me question whether my character is seeing/hearing someone, or they have chosen to end stealth. It can take up to a whole 5 seconds for them to show fully if coming out of stealth. The icon manages to slow your reaction. Example of where this is a problem: Aidan got attacked by a drow surface side. I could make their outline. They did rp it even though they honestly didn't need to. But had they not, they were close enough that I wasn't sure if they came out of hiding and it just didn't end yet, or if they were moving in for the kill. Again, a delay issue.

From a stealther's point of view, I don't need that icon to prove I'm hiding. The vast majority of the players have spent years functioning without it. Now I get that feeling of a fly buzzing around my head when I'm used to the way things were. To put it in basic terms, it's unnecessary.

In the end, I'm not a fan.

But I think you're getting the idea wrong on what it is. It's not for stealthers and to prove your own self you are hiding. It's for others. If you get spotted, sometimes you can't tell if they're hiding after being revealed. It can be super hard to see if there just idling in stealth or not to others. A VFX might be better but I don't know if we have any. And unfort we cant hide the icon for some people but not all. Otherwise we'd just hide it off your own (at the very least)

When you are spotted you aren't transparent anymore. So someone could be stealthed beside you but you have no clue because you cannot tell the difference. Which is just the opposite way of a problem - their intent.

I do agree the icon delay can be really removed almost instantly. I'm wondering why there is a delay that isn't needed and maybe theres a way to knock that off, long with a different icon.

[selhan]

Oh I not Hostile at all boss , but yes I am frustrated. After all, this issue goes back as far as 2023! I was wrong, not one year, but two! Well beyond annoying given that length. Two years! Thats worse than scheduling Events! LOL

So okay it cant be an optional to turn it off or on by any given player. I get that.

How about A system message in the chat box? Far better choice AoS mention this was done on another server, but I aint trying to make them stop in what their doing to redirect focus.

Also, I aint asking for change today or tomorrow. I know theres other priorities. But at the very least, can the matter be looked at? Reviewed ?
Because if it really wasnt an issue, this thread wouldnt had been made.

Far as the delay, perhaps a performance issue? Same with transitioning . Some ppl spawn slower than others.

[mrm3ntalist]

In our current environment, players are already allowed—and often encouraged—to customize their characters’ appearances in ways that deviate from the actual in-game mechanics. For example:

- Helmets are equipped for stats, yet almost no one roleplays wearing them. They’re invisible, replaced with hoods, glasses, or other cosmetic headgear.
- Armor visuals often bear no resemblance to the actual armor type. Heavy plate may look like a dress, casual clothes, or light leathers.
- Visual effects from spells are hidden or reduced so that characters can be displayed “the way the player likes,” rather than as the mechanics would realistically portray.

Given all of this, enforcing a permanent, obvious stealth icon feels inconsistent, immersion-breaking, and frankly unnecessary. In short, it is absolute garbage

1. Consistency with Existing Rules
If players can hide helmets, disguise armor, and remove spell visuals for aesthetic purposes, there’s no reason the same courtesy shouldn’t apply to stealth icons. I don’t want to be forced to have an ugly, immersion-breaking halo floating over my character’s head just because I’m hiding.

2. It’s Metagamey
The icon serves as an out-of-character notification that a character is in stealth mode. If you see someone, you see them. You don’t need a floating marker to tell you they are stealthing. If you don’t see them, you don’t see them—simple as that. The icon actively encourages metagaming rather than relying on line of sight and actual in-game stealth mechanics.

3. It Doesn’t Work Properly
The icon itself is buggy. There’s often a delay when coming out of hiding, meaning the icon remains visible even when it shouldn’t. Players already have to be mindful of line of sight and positioning to make stealth effective. Now we’re also expected to track an artificial timer for when the icon will finally disappear. This adds frustration without adding fairness or realism.

Conclusion
If appearance and immersion are already prioritized over mechanical accuracy in helmets, armor visuals, and spell effects, there’s no reason to treat the stealth icon differently. The current rule feels inconsistent, metagamey, and mechanically unreliable. Removing it—or at least making it optional—would better align with how we already handle other visual elements in the game.

[DM Faith]

Just my two cents as a DM:

In events we need a fast, clean way of detecting who is currently sneaking. The icon fulfills that role perfectly fine.

A feat where we have to target every player manually would just not work. We would have to cycle periodically over every player, which is just too much extra work DM side.

System messages in the chatbox would need to be periodically repeated, once per every X rounds. One message after a person is spotted is simply not enough. If we had an overhead message like for create diversion, this would be very, very distracting and would ruin screenshots more than an icon does. At critical numbers of players in our events, we may simply miss people who are going into / out of stealth, resulting in unforseen consequences.

The example of the spotter detecting you at the FAI is simply a problem of the NWN2 engine, as NWN2 does not have cones of sight. In this case, only listen should work, which I respect in my events. I would love if NWN2 would have different animations for the sneakers spotter-side, however, this is something only Aspyr with NWN2:EE could change.

The only other solution I can imagine would be a vfx at the feet of the character, similar to the magic circle against evil. However, it would need to be of a certain size, not overlapping with other ground vfx, and would, obviously, be very, very obvious.

[DaloLorn]

Yall want to keep the ugly icon? Fine...make it where its on your SCREEN of the ppl that do want it and not on the screen of those that DONT want it.

This would be perfect, I agree. We can harp on the ugliness/non-ugliness of the icon all day long, but the crux of the issue is that the sneak themselves shouldn't have to look at their own stealth icon: It's completely unrelated to the icon's actual purpose.

I had most of a longer post written up here, but multitasking left a bunch of other people beating me to it. Suffice to say that the ideal solution should remain automatic - perhaps Dae could hook into the perception code to let us fire a short script when a stealthing creature goes from undetected to detected by another creature, or maybe the heartbeat script could somehow keep track of this and let us deliver a notification without plugins - but it does not necessarily have to remain a visual cue. (Edit: Faith raises a good argument for it remaining visual, though!)

As for why the icon lasts as long as it does: Rhi hooked it up to check the sneak's stealth status in the PC heartbeat. I suspect it was the best approximation available to her: While she could probably hook into the mode bar to listen to changes in stealth status, hotbars also present a possible way of toggling stealth. Unable to hook into the stealth skill as she would an ordinary feat, she went with the heartbeat to capture all stealth status changes.

I got beaten to the punch again, so let me throw in a few more comments...

2. It’s Metagamey
The icon serves as an out-of-character notification that a character is in stealth mode. If you see someone, you see them. You don’t need a floating marker to tell you they are stealthing. If you don’t see them, you don’t see them—simple as that. The icon actively encourages metagaming rather than relying on line of sight and actual in-game stealth mechanics.

It's kind of impressive that you've packed so much wrongness into such a tiny bundle, making two critical errors in just one argument.

One: You do not see the icon if your PC doesn't see theirs. The icon is subject to the same visibility restrictions as the sneak themselves, and you cannot use it to metagame the sneak's presence.

Two: You, as the player, might not be able to tell that the other PC is trying to be sneaky. But your PC does, and should be able to act accordingly. You might not be able to tell that another PC is intently scanning their surroundings, but your PC should. You might not be able to tell that another PC is disguised, but your PC should. (... I often have to contend with the opposite problem, because there's only a handful of people using the disguise system and they each use it a lot more often than they roll up new characters.) By preventing the player from knowing everything their PC knows, your efforts at preventing metagaming now begin to permit godmodding in its stead.

There’s often a delay when coming out of hiding, meaning the icon remains visible even when it shouldn’t. Players already have to be mindful of line of sight and positioning to make stealth effective. Now we're also expected to track an artificial timer for when the icon will finally disappear.

This is a non-sequitur. Why would the timing of the icon's disappearance make stealth less effective? Are you expecting to just pop into existence in the middle of a crowd without drawing attention? That's the only way I can interpret this passage to make any sense.