On summons once again

[Zar'shalee]

Do you consider summons viable only if you are able to use them to solo high CR (27+) areas?

I hope you guys realise what you're asking for here is essentially summons with the martial power of a decent or even good PC fighter. So the ask is essentially to have an AI powered PC fighter build next to a potentially quite potent spellcaster.

Yes?...I want my summons to be able to kill my enemies because I cannot kill them because my character is a caster of limited spells slots from which majority is meant for summon buffs. While I cannot do any meaningful damage on melee because I took feats that support summoning and making creatures tad stronger?

What do you mean "decent or good PC fighters?... Are you serious? The other day I partied with character that was rocking two swords and damage output they were capable of mustering is something of a different world than my summons which do 20-30 damage per hit?

[predrag]

Do you consider summons viable only if you are able to use them to solo high CR (27+) areas?

I hope you guys realise what you're asking for here is essentially summons with the martial power of a decent or even good PC fighter. So the ask is essentially to have an AI powered PC fighter build next to a potentially quite potent spellcaster.

I'm thinking more of a system where you need choose the right summon for the right job . Not just solo a dungeon with it , but being useful when summoned in the situation , weather solo or in a party . Party part is more important to me , where some lower defense / higher offense summons might prove better when a player can hold the line . Or high defense / low offense could hold ground for a while but not contribute much to dps .

Keeping in mind all the buffs going into a summon to make it worthwhile , besides it's own spell slot , means the power weight shifts a bit there , as it's not just the power of one spell .

[predrag]

We already have summons taht are suppose to be spellcasters and it is just not working. They have only couple of spells and you ultimately have no control over them where to land those spells. It is just pure RNG chaos.

I've seen some spectacular healing from summons , and storms of vengeance , even in recent times . Granted , the ai isn't good , but it still an option to have , for those who enjoy a bit of chaos !

[Deathgrowl]

Thing is: 27+ CR dungeons aren't really designed to be soloable by anyone. Sure - some builds definitely can do it, though in my view that is a power creep issue that has happened over the years rather than anything else. AC in high 50s, AB around 50 and damage in the 40-50 range for 6 attacks per round is what a pretty decently built standard fighter is capable of. Yes, you can get more ridiculous numbers with some very specific build routes, by partying with a Bard and/or other spellcasters and excessive UMD use.

And UMD use is a key here, though I'd widen it to consumable use. You may have to accept the fact that even spellcasters will have to rely on consumables in order to solo places. For example healing scrolls, or healing kits for your summon. Stoneskin wands, scrolls or such to reduce incoming damage on the summon. And your spellbook is best filled with spells that get the summon out of overwhelming situations.

I've been playing wizards for years on BGTSCC and though I concede the summons have always felt a bit lacking, they are certainly much more powerful now than they were in the past. My tactics when reaching that sort of CR to try to solo places has been to Dominate Monster one of the local mobs and buff that up instead. I realise that doesn't feel the same, and it really isn't, but it does help you solo some places. But not everywhere. My spellbook otherwise is filled up with control spells or save vs death spells so that if the summoned/dominated creature gets ganged up on, I can quickly kill off or pacify one of the enemies while the summon/dominated finishes off the other.

Honestly it isn't that long since I played around with a palemaster and that vampire 10 summon is still very good. Yeah, it has 40 AC and 38 AB or thereabouts when buffed up, and its damage is mediocre at best. But it also has 5 regen per round, and with a bit of patience, smart use of consumables and precise use of spells, I could do a fair bit of content solo.

EDIT:
And I want to make a note about druid companions here: If you are willing to invest in a couple of wands, those companions are already doing almost what you're asking of other summons. The dragon companion, if you go that route, will have slightly lower AC than the animal companions, but its AB is in the 50s and it has Multiattack, meaning consecutive attacks in the round are -2 instead of -5 (so for example 50/48/46/44/42 instead of 50/45/40/35/30). That thing is a menace.

[Zar'shalee]

We already have summons taht are suppose to be spellcasters and it is just not working. They have only couple of spells and you ultimately have no control over them where to land those spells. It is just pure RNG chaos.

I've seen some spectacular healing from summons , and storms of vengeance , even in recent times . Granted , the ai isn't good , but it still an option to have , for those who enjoy a bit of chaos !

I mean yes? Balor also cast Fire storm which do like 30 damage to enemy mobs and Implosion with low DC which can kill only very low level mobs. But once he casts those spells that's it, he done. I mean, I do not disagree that having caster creatures whiích would for example spam fire explosion (or how is that magic feat called) would be kinda cool, I agree with that.

[predrag]

EDIT:
And I want to make a note about druid companions here: If you are willing to invest in a couple of wands, those companions are already doing almost what you're asking of other summons. The dragon companion, if you go that route, will have slightly lower AC than the animal companions, but its AB is in the 50s and it has Multiattack, meaning consecutive attacks in the round are -2 instead of -5 (so for example 50/48/46/44/42 instead of 50/45/40/35/30). That thing is a menace.

100% on that . I got complaints that even my bear companion , when fully buffed , with 63 AC and 49 ab , multiattack , 4 attacks with 35 damage , was out preforming players . And it was ... just for 3 minutes though , the length of the nature's avatar buff , still really strong .
Though the companions has some drawbacks , like low saves , which aren't immediately apparent . And well , the bad ai .

[Louvaine]

I think it's a valid argument to say that conjurers sacrifice something of their own power to channel that through their summons. Much like Deathgrowl, I wouldn't advocate saying that any summoner should be able to be self-sufficient, as it can kill the purpose of the cooperative storytelling game that we play. In fact, I agree that late-game content should be completed by groups of players (not summons), but I do have to agree that NPCs are largely weak. If it helps, here are references from EasternCheesE.

Can I also say, and please don't take this the wrong way, I love how the conversation now shifted to enchantment and druidism from conjuration? If we are going to change topic, can we please talk about how inconsistent SR checks are on Conjuration spells?

[Mork]

Do you consider summons viable only if you are able to use them to solo high CR (27+) areas?

I hope you guys realise what you're asking for here is essentially summons with the martial power of a decent or even good PC fighter. So the ask is essentially to have an AI powered PC fighter build next to a potentially quite potent spellcaster.

Realistically (to me) viable = better stats than player char can have. It should compensate for poor AI, duration, general annoyance summons are in group play etc. Otherwise? I'd rather play with player-based character "summon". Could be fun RP

Again - not realistic expectation.

[Deathgrowl]

Can I also say, and please don't take this the wrong way, I love how the conversation now shifted to enchantment and druidism from conjuration?

Let's not forget Necromancy! Or the few Transmutation and Illusion summons that are available!

But it's a fair remark! I was just reacting to "summons" as a mechanical concept, not really conjuration focused.

[Zar'shalee]

EDIT:
And I want to make a note about druid companions here: If you are willing to invest in a couple of wands, those companions are already doing almost what you're asking of other summons. The dragon companion, if you go that route, will have slightly lower AC than the animal companions, but its AB is in the 50s and it has Multiattack, meaning consecutive attacks in the round are -2 instead of -5 (so for example 50/48/46/44/42 instead of 50/45/40/35/30). That thing is a menace.

I am aware that druid animal companion can get really strong. Then again. Why conjured creatures cannot get the similar scaling like animl companion summon or dragon companion? 63 AC? 49 AB on bear companion?... Are you kidding me? Not even Balor from Epic gate boast such a stats and that guy lasts only 40 rounds. Druid animal companions are pretty much forever.

[renshouj]

I've been playing a summoner (conjuration focus, with thaum) and honestly the only thing I feel holds me back is the summon's AC. I absolutely disagree with the idea that a summon should be reaching 50-60 AC, that is imo just completely unfeasible for how easy and safe being a summoner is... But even fully buffed, I've been struggling to get my summons to 40 AC, and I do feel like a couple extra points of AC in their blueprint (i'm literally talking like 3-6 AC), would be enough to make a difference in how it feels.

Now, there's also imo the matter of summon variety. Should summons just be "one-size-fits-all" as I think they mostly are today? Or should we have very distinct summon archetypes (spellcaster summons, healer summons, tank summons, damage summons), which in turn are far, far far, FAR harder to balance.

edit: As for true names, I do think it's a cool system that has been misused and needs a rework, but that's a lot of time and effort to put there, and as far as staff discussions about it go (and we've had plenty of them, believe me), I've seen no real satisfactory rework design due to technical limitations and player workarounds.

[Steve]

and that guy lasts only 40 rounds. Druid animal companions are pretty much forever.

80 rounds (8 minutes) duration with Thaumaturge and Epic Gate / Dragon Knight feats.

[Steve]

One of my True names that I consider "somewhat useful" When fully buffed (wands included) level 19 Outsider. Can muster 45 AC 44/39/34/29 AB. But damage only 2-12 + 17 (STR bonus) +5 GMW. So realistically he hits usually around 20-25+-. Creature also has some DR. It can stand for itself in CR 25 locations but anything above that low damage output starts to show.

It's interesting to me, your numbers for your Named Being, because compare its 19 HD with my "epic" Named Being of 24 HD. Almost as good AC, way better AB, poorer dmg (my White Slaad has Multiattack though, that helps a lot!).

And if you can realistically take a 19 HD summons, buffed to the 9s, and run it thorugh a CR 25 area...that is actually pretty darn good and "punching" above the Rating System.

But if it is true, that by design, BGTSCC is meant to not have solo PCs of any type in CR 27+ areas...the Server has A LOT of work to do, not just related to Conjurers.

[Steve]

I know that in general the following comment applies to all casters except Warlocks, but finite spellbook per day use and the absolute need to buff Summons to be actually useful in corresponding CR areas, means it is a losing proposition from the start, as so many Areas have poorly designed Rest points, if a Rest spot at all, within the "run" of the dungeon area.

Let's just look at the math of it: I have a CR 24 Named Being that I need to buff with Improved Mages Armor, Spiderskin, Greater Heroism (if available), Greater Magic Weapon, Greater/Superior Resistance, Stoneskin, Haste. Average of 6 spells + the Epic Gate use (4/day) to conjure it. Because using also Thaumaturge in the build/character, that's 8 minutes per Rest of 18 minutes Level 30 Timer. To have my best Conjuriing out and active, my PC is going to burn 18 spells, because after the Named Being runs it's duration, it is resummon and reapply.

Since there are no Rest areas, likely compound the above with +1 additional summons of 4/day for the Epic Gate usage, plus if we're being honest, a Conjurer will also be summoning their Contingent Summons, and that is another 6+ spells burned (though no re-applying if it survives, since it is a permanent duration...but we know it won't survive, because Summons are not really that well balanced to the content...I'd say they are balanced to an concept of a PC build of X, Y, Z type, which is weird but okay).

And finally, said Conjurer needs a bunch of spells to survive themselves, in the Area (which means usually "hanging back," unless you've tried to build a gish-conjurer and can hold some melee engagement. My conjurer tops out at 48 AC max buffs, that do not last long enough to clear a CR 21-26 area without reapplying...and an AC of 48 without also popping extended Displacements is going to get your caster smacked down hard, because the AI always cheats and attacks the Caster first or highest HD PC first, and bypasses the "tank" summons idea you as the player might have had...but YOU'RE WRONG!!! ha ha...ha).

[Zar'shalee]

Now, there's also imo the matter of summon variety. Should summons just be "one-size-fits-all" as I think they mostly are today? Or should we have very distinct summon archetypes (spellcaster summons, healer summons, tank summons, damage summons), which in turn are far, far far, FAR harder to balance.

edit: As for true names, I do think it's a cool system that has been misused and needs a rework, but that's a lot of time and effort to put there, and as far as staff discussions about it go (and we've had plenty of them, believe me), I've seen no real satisfactory rework design due to technical limitations and player workarounds.

Bigger summon variety would obviously be a good addition. Or anything that makes the whole system less boring and more exciting. But having spellcaster/tank/DPS dedicated sumons also means that you need better controls over them. What is the point of having spellcaster summon with no ability to actually control when or where they should cast it would just add to general annoyance.

As for true names yes, it is a cool (and have potential to be even cooler), but corrupt system that players eventually ruined by themselves because of it's design.