Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2022)

[Flatted Fifth]

I'd like to know the reason why the ac changes are being done. The lack of tumble ac is particularly hurtful to swash and ranger builds as well as rogues. DEX based melee is supposed to be a thing. Dex based melee was the literal RL downfall of full plate. Not firearms. Google "was full plate able to stop musket balls". You will find that it was.

This very, very much seems like a case of you guys made a new mechanic, you think it's neat, you're proud of your work, and now you want to force everyone to need it whether they want it or not.

[Blame The Rogue]

it seems the primary concern with ac is warlocks with ICE? is the negative ab not applying to ranged touch attacks?

if that is the case, it needs to be addressed specifically with warlocks, and not broad-sweeping changes that negatively effect literally everyone else

if the intent is to lower ac across the board, all that needs to be done, is not have it be necessary. lower mob ab across the board, and you'll quickly see folks taking another feat instead of ICE

[Rhifox]

it seems the primary concern with ac is warlocks with ICE? is the negative ab not applying to ranged touch attacks?

No, that isn't the primary concern.

Regardless, as said, the FD/Tumble/Parry stuff most likely will not be included in this patch.

[DM Winter]

This very, very much seems like a case of you guys made a new mechanic, you think it's neat, you're proud of your work, and now you want to force everyone to need it whether they want it or not.

This is a very unfair statement


Change is good, we all know a lot of game content is bloated. These changes are a precursor to a PvE overhaul, its necessary that they come first because there's a lot on the PvE rework that will base itself on these changes and added mechanics.

It is a well known fact that the PvE on this server is stale, it's been repeated by multiple mouths multiple times. These changes are a step toward making the overall experience better.

Also, Rhifox has said that most of the AC changes will likely not be included in this patch, though even if they do, I think it is overall for the better.

Please, everyone, do try to think long term, Rhifox isn't actively thinking "how can I nerf everyone and make life miserable?", the goal is to set the groundwork for the eventual rebalancing of mobs and content. In fact, I personally think its a shame the AC changes arent going in with this patch, means people will likely have to RCR again once they come at a later patch, but that is very much a personal opinion.

[Flatted Fifth]

If what you're trying to do is nerf the full plate + tumble ac combo, then might I suggest this:

Cap the max ac bonus from tumble according to the type of armor equipped so you nerf the full plate + tumble combo (a combo that doesn't make sense, imo) without completely screwing swash, ranger, and rogue

+3 max for light or no armor
+2 max for medium armor
+1 max for heavy armor

That would result in the following best choices:

light armor build:
mithral chain shirt (4/6) or breastplate (5/5) + dex bonus + 3 tumble ac = 13 ( same as original, in other words)

Heavy armor build:
darkleaf full plate (8/2) + 2x armor optimization + 1 tumble = 13
Mithral full plate (8/3) + 2 tumble = 13 (mithral FP doesn't get armor opt, and is technically medium armor so would get +2 max ac from tumble)
( darkleaf slightly better in this scenario because mithral looses more when flat footed)

Voila, problem of acrobatics in full plate solved without completely screwing all but 1 of my characters and pretty much every ranger and swash and rogue. Then there also would be no point in heavy armor builds having more than 10 base ranks in tumble, allowing skill points to be lovingly spent on your new mechanic via parry skill

[Bobthehero]

dex based melee was the literal RL downfall of full plate. Not firearms. Google "was full plate able to stop musket balls". You will find that it was.

Gonna need sources, yo, because ''dex based based melee'' wasn't much of a thing on the battlefields where full plates where common. On account of y'know, the guns. The bows. The crossbows. If you want to get in a gap of someone in plate armor, you grapple them, grab a pointy dagger, and stick in the gaps. It's not going to be some dude in a jerkin wrestling someone in plate. The other way is brute force, bonk them with a bec de corbin or any similar polearm. As for stopping musket balls. Yes, some plates, the sort the nobility could afford. Munition plate, the cheap stuff that was being issued more and more to the infantry was of much lower quality, and was likely less bulletproof than the custom made stuff.

[AgentOrange]

it seems the primary concern with ac is warlocks with ICE? is the negative ab not applying to ranged touch attacks.

As warlock is the only class that predominantly uses touch attacks, it would appear that the decision to change the base game mechanic of not having I/CE affect touch attacks specifically targets warlocks with I/CE, even though warlocks have been using it without issue since the birth of the game. They're spells, you just chant and point, not strike with a weapon, so CE shouldn't affect them.

[Flatted Fifth]

dex based melee was the literal RL downfall of full plate. Not firearms. Google "was full plate able to stop musket balls". You will find that it was.

Gonna need sources, yo, because ''dex based based melee'' wasn't much of a thing on the battlefields where full plates where common. On account of y'know, the guns. The bows. The crossbows. If you want to get in a gap of someone in plate armor, you grapple them, grab a pointy dagger, and stick in the gaps. It's not going to be some dude in a jerkin wrestling someone in plate. The other way is brute force, bonk them with a bec de corbin or any similar polearm. As for stopping musket balls. Yes, some plates, the sort the nobility could afford. Munition plate, the cheap stuff that was being issued more and more to the infantry was of much lower quality, and was likely less bulletproof than the custom made stuff.

If you want to talk about a sentence I threw in as a tangent instead of addressing the main point of how the proposed changes affect swash, ranger, and rogue builds, then "shoving a pointy thing into the gaps" is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. As to archery vs armor,

here's a video (hint, it doesn't work)

As to armor vs bullets,

here's an episode of NOVA

Are we done discussing an off-hand remark and ignoring the main issue? Bob? If I'm honest probably the real downfall was expense and practicality, but it was certainly rubbish against someone with a fencing foil and a lot of skill. And idk where you get the "maybe the expensive kind the nobles could afford was bulletproof" bit, because it was steel that had to be custom fitted to an individual. It was ALL the expensive kind only nobles could afford.

[Bobthehero]

No, because I mostly agree with your points.

But you misunderstood me. My point was ''dex based builds'' don't work on the battlefield where you need plate armor to protect against ranged weapons. Without it, you better have a shield, or you're pretty screwed. And to shove something into a gap, you either need to grapple and throw down the plate wearing opponent to immobilize them. And you better be wearing plate armor of your own, because while you try and poke at those tiny, moving weakspot, the other guy will just run you through with his back up weapon.

Edit: As for the foil and skill? A knight is amongst the most skilled member of European society, they would be very much able to defend themselves, and the plate gives them a massive advantage.

[Rhifox]

Please keep the historical arguments elsewhere.

[Flatted Fifth]

The changes to duelist also seem especially harmful because that deflection ac was the class's real saving grace on a server where the most Int bonus anyone is likely to have is +7 for a tief or air genasi with +4 int gear.** Not a great ac for a melee class wearing no armor and unable to use a shield.

Sorry, I really do think this is a mess. I mentioned just the other day that duelist could use a boost, and you're proposing a nerf. You're proposing screwing pretty much every dex based build, too by taking away the armor optimization and the tumble ac.

As I said, if you want to nerf the heavy armor + tumble combo I suggest making max ac from tumble based on armor type
+3 for light or no armor
+2 for medium armor
+1 for heavy armor
This would make 13 ac total of Armor + Dex + Optimization + Tumble for most people if you continue to make optimization unusable for light armors and mithral.

And I also suggest giving duelist int-based ac bonus when using a light shield (not heavy or tower). It would be nice to see "bucklers" a good choice for people other than bards and warlocks anyway. This could be done by giving a duelist a script that checks if they have something in their off hand. If they do and it's a light shield, then give them + dodge ac == duelist level or int bonus, whichever is lower.

[BloodRiot]

I am going to drop some math here for your consideration.

I wanted to see how much AC one can get no matter the build. The only exceptions i will make to this exercise is permitting the spending of 30 skill points and/or 1 or 2 feats. I find at level 30 this is not unreasonable or unattainable given the premium people seem to put on AC value.

So this exercise we will count all non build sources of AC, which mean ANYONE can get it. We can get the following AC
10(base)+ 10(estimation*)+4ArmorEB+4Ddg+4Def+4Nat = 36 from Dexterity and gear alone
let's go shopping and buy the a Potion of Shield or a few brooches of shielding for an extra 4 = 40

* Whether you are using FP and Tower shields as a fighter a 10 Dexterity Modifier Rogue type, or a IMA+Dex+Spiderskin wizard you'll end up around 10 maybe a bit more maybe just a tad less.

That bit above is the same before and after the proposed patch. That is your absolute minimum expected AC at level 30


Now let's spot the differences from the 40(ish) AC we added above:

NOW Option A: tumble30 = +3 = 43 AC
(costs 30 skill points if not cross class)

NOW Option B: CE/ICE +3/+6 AC. = 43/46 AC
(Costs 1 or 2 feats, requires. 13 Intelligence)

NOW Option C: Both. = 46/49 AC
(costs 30 skill points if not cross class + 1 or 2 feats, requires. 13 Intelligence)

This costs 30 skill points and 1 or 2 feats so a maximum of +9 AC and an AB Penalty of -6. Reqs Tumble not being cross class and a min int of 13.

AFTER PATCH Option A: FD + Tumble25 = +5 = 45 AC
(costs 25 skill points if not cross class)

AFTER PATCH Option B: TD/Parry + Parry33 = +10 = 50 AC
(costs 33 skill points if not cross class)

AFTER PATCH Option C: CE = +1 to +5 = 41 to 45 AC
(Costs 1 feat, requires. 13 Intelligence)

All these modes are mutually exclusive.

Pre patch you can get your AC boosted by any combination of:
3, 6 or 9 for a respective cost of 0, -3 and -6 AB (43-49). Build costs are 30 skill points + 2 feats for full potential AC.

Post Patch you are likely to get one of 3 ways which don't combine:
FD + Tumble = +5 AC and a -4AB (45 AC). Build cost of 25 skill points.
CE = +1 to +5 AC for the same penalty in AB.(41 to 45 AC) Build costs 1 feat.
TD/Parry = +10 AC no AB penalty.(50 AC) Costs 33Skill Points.

I haven't counted classes that boost your AC like Monk, Swash, Dervish, Duelist, etc. so after all the above you still get to add these bonus to your build where it applies. As that is heavily build dependent and therefore excluded from this exercise.

Similarly I haven't counted any other AC increasing Feats or buffs one can get from spells(self cast with the exception of the considerations mentioned above), Elixirs/Potions(aside from the one mentioned above, UMD(scrolls and wands). That is for specific builds and purses to consider.

Everything above is attainable by the vast majority of the classes and builds and wallets. It does mean that AC values can still get much higher though, both before and after patch.

In both the case of before and after, the averages of the values accounted for fall around 45 ish average. As I said the values can get higher if one accounts for a lot more build dependent things and buffs. How High exactly do we need AC to be in order to be viable exactly?

I hope this gives you all some food for thought.

[Flatted Fifth]

You're ignoring the costs to AB. The proposal is to take normal, working ac and convert a lot of it to conditional upon defensive mode that saps number of attacks or ability to attack AT ALL. Also taking a further 2 points from optimization away from light armor and not others. It's not workable.

Also, "a little bit more or a little bit less" is not acceptable math, particularly in a game system where there is a all-or-nothing style of combat. An attack roll off the AC number by only one point is the difference between full damage and no damage. If you wanted to add a script that lessened the damage on hits that only barely hit then your math would be acceptable. As it stands, it is not.

[BloodRiot]

I did not ignore it. It's right there... twice. It's accounted for. Also there are no such thing as free lunch. CE and ICE also have such costs. And that analysis is there.

but i will repeat a third time:
Now you can have +3/-0, +6/-3 or +9/-6
After patch you will have +5/-4, +5/-5 and +10/-0 (parry mode that coutns for all your attacks, not current buggy mess)

The little bit more or little bit less is accountign for several build differences:
A Fighter with 16 Dex with full plate and a tower shield will have 8ac+1dex+4 tower shield will not have 10, but 13
That same fighter upgraded to a MFP will have 15 quite a bit more

A rogue type usually sits around cloth 30 Dex so flat 10 there depends on builds it's an average. deal with it.

A mage will usually have IMA+Spiderskin minimum = 6 + 5(only +1 over the natural armor +4 counted above) and let's say a natural dex 14 upped to 18 with cats grace for a +4 will have 11.

Some less optimized builds will have a little less.. 10 makes it easy and is not even an upper limit.

[Rhifox]

The changes to duelist also seem especially harmful because that deflection ac was the class's real saving grace on a server where the most Int bonus anyone is likely to have is +7 for a tief or air genasi with +4 int gear.** Not a great ac for a melee class wearing no armor and unable to use a shield.

Current Elaborate Parry: +1 extra AC over wearing a +4 Deflection item.

Post Patch Elaborate Parry: +10 extra AC at Duelist 10 when in Fighting Defensively or Parry modes. That is a significant improvement. Plus the +2 to +5 you already get from FD or the +4 to +10 you already get from Parry. On a high BAB class that doesn't have much issues losing 4 AB (which, mind, is less of an AB reduction than you have currently with ICE).

The Tumble change is irrelevant for Duelist, because they still get the +3 from maxed Tumble in Fighting Defensively mode. Which is, again, less of an AB penalty than you currently have with ICE.

And I'm not talking about Canny Defense. That's not changing. So not sure why you're bringing up Int bonuses.

So yeah. That's not a nerf.