New Players / Player Retention and "getting the word out" about BGTSCC

[metaquad4]

There's no dignity in playing an XP-addicted hamster; in that, you are correct. But circle-grinding was never the intended play, it was just an inevitable consequence of our PvE design and the absence of effective mechanisms by which it could be prevented.

In that, we 100% agree. I'm pacing myself, not circle grinding on Arelith, and generally having a good time. The same thing happened on Tales Of Amn and Port Of Shadows when those servers were up. And Sigil when it was populated. And Dalelands. It is certainly a question of dungeon design, and the overall pace of leveling. And maybe server culture too (Dalelands wasn't a bastion of dungeon design). And yeah. Circle-grinding is hell. But it is what is done on BGTSCC.

Though it also helps on all those servers, we didn't really roll for skills or do things like that either. DM events are what drives this server and simply due to the mechanics involved in them (here) it is far better to be 30.

The whole rat-race to get to 30 in a very annoying way is definitely a BG-specific phenomenon, at-least for me.

Don't get me wrong, leveling isn't the only thing wrong with BG. It is only the tip of the iceberg for me. It's just a really easy problem to solve. Hell, BGTSCC has had good leveling areas in the past (UD Lake is a recent example!), they just declared them bugs and patched them out lol. When your playerbase enjoys something and then you patch it out instead of listening to them - that is a screw up IMO.

[Ravial]

I'm pacing myself, not circle grinding on Arelith

Circle grinding isn't productive, anyway, since it gives minuscule amounts of exp. Arelith is quest and instance dependant, which is a starkly different way of exping model. Ours is more of an old-genre MMORPG. ((Like classic WoW or Lineage 2)). There were ideas to change it, but those were always stifled by arguing on whether or not quests are to be treated IC or OOC and if OOC, then why not just remove them and give people exp periodically? While the argument may sound logical, it just defeats the purpose of trying to improve the game experience and add proper pacing to the gameplay. In essence, it sounds snarky and nasty rather than helpful.

Though it also helps on all those servers, we didn't really roll for skills or do things like that either. DM events are what drives this server and simply due to the mechanics involved in them (here) it is far better to be 30.

True, people on Arelith mostly make their own RP. Primarily because DM events are only for the friends of the staff ;0 Arelith never got out of their corruption, the community just figured out how to sideline it.

At the same time, while true that it is better to be 30 if only for the sake of balancing DM encounters, the DM Team has been working its ass off to support low-level characters in plots. Going as far as making things just boring for level 30ties and making skill checks adjusted to people's skill value and high vs low roll rather than flat DC. It's not easily visible, however, but it's an effort.

The whole rat-race to get to 30 in a very annoying way is definitely a BG-specific phenomenon, at-least for me.

Truth. It does, however, stem from two factors:
1. DM Events that were in any shape or form important, in the past, were tailored to max-level people.
2. PvP mongering used to be big and nowadays everyone wants to be level 30 strong build to not fail in being confrontational because nobody likes losing.

Both are not nearly as prevalent as they used to be way back when, but the mentality remained in the community.

However, there's a new way to exp nowadays that I've found way faster than circle-grinding. Roleplay exp got such a massive boost, I've been raking 80-90 exp on average by just holding a conversation with someone. I am never going to grind again, lol.

When your playerbase enjoys something and then you patch it out instead of listening to them - that is a screw up IMO.

100% agree. Everything within reasonable boundaries, naturally, but 100% we should not tear things that players enjoy down, just because someone is married to the old times and old game styles.

[Ravial]

The lacking crafting system, the community's most requested mechanical feature, still hasn't managed to see the light of day and the steps to get there are frequently abandoned.

I'm fairly sure, by now, that the only way to do it is to outsource a programmer.

[metaquad4]

Side-note: On Arelith, I've been in several events now haha. Maybe times have changed, but there are def big server-wide events. I've only been on for a month and I've been relatively close to the center for major plots, more the sidelines for another, and attended few minor ones. Kinda similar to what BG used to do: with one exception, people are general given a hook they can complete with absolutely no DM present. The net result is that people end up treating the event as if its still happening - with or without a DM. Also, DMs don't use OOC cooms in Arelith. So it can be hard to tell if something is or isn't an event.

People also have the means to do RP without DMs. On BGTSCC, if I wanted a house, a boat, a guild, a hall, to attack another faction - there are OOC hoops on the dreaded fourms to jump through. On Arelith, I can just do it. That speeds things up a lot.

Giving player agency makes them do things. Giving players no agency makes them play the months-long BGTSCC waiting game.

Sigil, you can join one of the canonical factions and do your stuff right away. That was another system I loved.

The BG DMs just seem to love to work I guess, there is so much red tape for doing stuff here.

Even with our own guild, the Crimson Watch. Post-DM and Pre-DM were stark contrasts. Pre-DM, we were doing stuff every day. Once we become an official guild, stuff just grinded to a halt because we had to wait for everything. It was not exactly inspiring. Sure stuff happened, but it was at such a dull pace because now we got 100 hoops before we can actually play the game. It's meh. BGTSCC kinda burned me off DMs all-together for a bit lol. Even when a DM event comes around, I'm so jaded I can't really enjoy it. All I can think is "cool, a couple hours of moderate entertainment and then back to the waiting game". I'd rather do stuff with other players who are more dynamic and reactive. And of course, BGTSCC is a DM-focused environment and feels like it has just gotten more-so that. So clearly, it isn't the place for someone who wants to play the game at a pace faster than the speed of government.

That is just how I felt towards the end, anyway. There's my brutally honest feedback (maybe a bit rude/blunt, sorry). Pacing is slow, PvE is miserable (and it seems like that is INTENDED, considering the opportunities to fix it were not taken), it feels like you can't do much without a DM, the over-reliance on fourms for RP is meh (I'd rather play the game than play the fourms). And between events, you aren't doing stuff in game - you are PMing DMs skill rolls lol. Thrilling gameplay indeed.

I don't feel like the problems are unfixable. But they will require someone to just say "we are doing this", rather than making it a discussion (they should gather feedback ofc and adjust course as needed). That is the job of a server admin.

And for identifying problems: if one is unsure just ask the players (the active ones, don't ask peeps like me who are already gone lol - atleast in the start. Start with who you have and migrate down later if you can manage solidify your foundation). If someone says it is a problem, then it is a problem - plain and simple. Hold a townhall in discord, hell jump on voice chat with the players. Figure out what people want that way. Be transparent about what can and can't be done.

Just my 2cents anyway.

[Ravial]

I'm sorry that you feel so low about the events I used to make for you guys. :/

[metaquad4]

I'm sorry that you feel so low about the events I used to make for you guys. :/

I mean don't get me wrong, they were a lot of work and I appreciate that - and the others had a lot of fun. DM Events are just not my cup of tea, personally - in comparison to player2player RP.

My personal favourite dynamic is player faction vs player faction conflicts (of all kinds, friendly, political, and hostile conflicts) with DM events there to flesh out the world and perhaps create objectives for said conflicts.

[blazerules]

always stifled by arguing on whether or not quests are to be treated IC or OOC and if OOC

To be fair is circle grinding xvarts for 12 hours straight IC?

while true that it is better to be 30 if only for the sake of balancing DM encounters, the DM Team has been working its (hiney) off to support low-level characters in plots.

This is true! I don't know about other DMs but know for a fact that DM Mimic has been doing an amazing job here.

When your playerbase enjoys something and then you patch it out instead of listening to them - that is a screw up IMO.

100% agree. Everything within reasonable boundaries, naturally, but 100% we should not tear things that players enjoy down, just because someone is married to the old times and old game styles.

Really, the truth about things like this is they are often player made solutions to game developed issues. Very often, even in AAA games, you will see the player made solution to a game problem patched out. But the problem remains. So all they did was just make the experience worse for everyone instead of focusing on the actual issue. In our case circle grinding is a solution players found.

Personally I absolutely adore DM Events. They are a highlight and in DM Mimics case are often surprisingly emotional too! This evil chest made me cry at least once >:(

But it is true that there is a lack of player agency lacking DM or forum interaction. We could probably at the very least use a housing system (house or boat etc) similar to Havens to supplement the one we got so that you dont need to ever visit the forums for one unless you want something special. Not sure how plot stuff would work towards player agency though, as you'd probably need DMs for that in some capacity.

[Almarea90]

Unfortunately I wouldn't know how to attract new players, but I do have some feedback on how to retain new players and avoid them leaving straight away.

As mentioned by other players, new comers tend to congregate in batches just because they are in the same level range. I think that this is where the old timers could help and of course many already do that. I strongly believe that those like us who saw several years of server history and know how things work could help by stepping a bit on the sidelines and act as mentors and advisors or facilitate the low levels/new characters in joining events (both DM and player led).

I can throw some example here, but that of course depends on the character and how they RP.

- Whenever possible, making know whenever they are available for RP and stick to that time window even if nobody is around straight away;
- Guild leaders or high ranking elements could assign tasks to the prospective or new members to prove themselves (like the Green Enclave did at some point);
- Taking an apprentice;
- Delegating tasks or participation to DM events to lower levels;
- Sharing the latest news, in case the newcomers might be interested in any of those;
- Getting to know these characters back story, goals, etc... so that they can be redirected to the most appropriate path to progress in their development.
- It is also important to accompany all this with OOC explanation of the basics, like DM requests, plot follow up etc. Of course it's all in the forum but we all know that being tutored by a real person is better than reading pages and pages of forum.

At the end of the day keeping the new people engaged likely means to retain them, at least in those first weeks/months and it may make the difference on whether or not they have fun sticking around.

Of course I cannot stress enough that it is also important for new people to get out there and approach the more experienced players as otherwise we won't know that you need help. Even something simple as posting in the new player section of the discord will likely get at least three or four old timer out of the woodwork and ready to help.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

The lacking crafting system, the community's most requested mechanical feature, still hasn't managed to see the light of day and the steps to get there are frequently abandoned.

I'm fairly sure, by now, that the only way to do it is to outsource a programmer.

Don't think that's required. The work itself isn't hard, it's getting people to agree to a proposal that never comes to fruition. Some element may pass through the cracks but it's not a framework in itself.

[LazyTrain]

True, people on Arelith mostly make their own RP. Primarily because DM events are only for the friends of the staff ;0 Arelith never got out of their corruption, the community just figured out how to sideline it.

What a time to check the forums for old times sake.

[Moonsong]

A thing that was not mentiones yet:

Open up groups, i often see guilds only playing amongsten themselves. Some might call it elitism even. But if a new person tries to play with them, it is hard, up to impossible. Sometimes timezones are a problem. But why not let those who are able to cover the rare timezones, play with the new guys/girls? I mean, it is support for the guild, wether they want to join or just be allies. It is good for the server and the reputation.

[Steve]

I keep reading a couple of recurring themes in the last few pages, related to what is the "how to retain players part," since these comments are mostly the "you should fix this..." sort, and not the "how about this idea/action to lure in new players."

Here is the reality: if you find a problem, They AND Us need to step up to fix it.

Or, there needs to be some clarity on what a person really is asking from others who volunteer their time there on BGTSCC for the benefit of everyone. For example:

• If you don't like how the role-play is sectioned off, elitist or gated, are you going to step up to make a change? Players must lead these "open/intra Guild" events.
• If you don't like the custom mechanics/Content/scripts, are you going to jump in with your coding mastery in a half-baked engine/platform and show us your epic wizardry?
• If you don't like how the Dungeon Mastering is...mastered, are you going to step into that Role, and make difference? Run lowbie events and cater to newbie story building?
• If you don't like how the Administration runs the Server, are you going to petition to take up that Role? Are you prepared for how whenever you make one change, somebody else wants to publicly vilify you and nail you to the wall? Are you capable of leading a Team?
• If you don't like how the Server is owned, are you prepared to spend RL time doing all the back end and "hand wringling" just to find a way to keep the lights on?
• Are you going to step up to do it?

But hey...I'm not saying anyone's problems or "complaints" aren't valid here. We all carry some view of a flaw, some complaint, some rough edge, some inter-personal fall-out. It is all real, but all subjective. However, it is absolutely necessary to take a far more objective view and actions, and step up to support it.

I do believe in the adage "a ship has only one captain." Yet, there is no captain without her ship, without her crew. And these latter entities are fundamental and need to stay in shape, need to support, need to show up.

If anything, we need to be more honest, especially in this respect: if BGTSCC, at this moment, only consists of between 50–100 active members, there simply needs help and effort among us to progress this Server forward. Also, to attract new players to a game community that is vibrant, not bitchy. Or crass. Or jaded. Every bit helps, people. Even if all you got is to be open and welcoming IG, supportive IG, with engaging the others that are here...or trying to learn to play here for the first time.

But...if you got more juice, then step up to the other parts. If you want to but have little idea where to start, contact me and I'll offer you some of my own observations where a person could be of some help. SINCE I KNOW EVERYTHING!!!!! Cheers.

[krighaur]

I keep reading a couple of recurring themes in the last few pages, related to what is the "how to retain players part," since these comments are mostly the "you should fix this..." sort, and not the "how about this idea/action to lure in new players."

Here is the reality: if you find a problem, They AND Us need to step up to fix it.

Or, there needs to be some clarity on what a person really is asking from others who volunteer their time there on BGTSCC for the benefit of everyone. For example:

• If you don't like how the role-play is sectioned off, elitist or gated, are you going to step up to make a change? Players must lead these "open/intra Guild" events.
• If you don't like the custom mechanics/Content/scripts, are you going to jump in with your coding mastery in a half-baked engine/platform and show us your epic wizardry?
• If you don't like how the Dungeon Mastering is...mastered, are you going to step into that Role, and make difference? Run lowbie events and cater to newbie story building?
• If you don't like how the Administration runs the Server, are you going to petition to take up that Role? Are you prepared for how whenever you make one change, somebody else wants to publicly vilify you and nail you to the wall? Are you capable of leading a Team?
• If you don't like how the Server is owned, are you prepared to spend RL time doing all the back end and "hand wringling" just to find a way to keep the lights on?
• Are you going to step up to do it?

But hey...I'm not saying anyone's problems or "complaints" aren't valid here. We all carry some view of a flaw, some complaint, some rough edge, some inter-personal fall-out. It is all real, but all subjective. However, it is absolutely necessary to take a far more objective view and actions, and step up to support it.

I do believe in the adage "a ship has only one captain." Yet, there is no captain without her ship, without her crew. And these latter entities are fundamental and need to stay in shape, need to support, need to show up.

If anything, we need to be more honest, especially in this respect: if BGTSCC, at this moment, only consists of between 50–100 active members, there simply needs help and effort among us to progress this Server forward. Also, to attract new players to a game community that is vibrant, not bitchy. Or crass. Or jaded. Every bit helps, people. Even if all you got is to be open and welcoming IG, supportive IG, with engaging the others that are here...or trying to learn to play here for the first time.

But...if you got more juice, then step up to the other parts. If you want to but have little idea where to start, contact me and I'll offer you some of my own observations where a person could be of some help. SINCE I KNOW EVERYTHING!!!!! Cheers.

I react not to you, because I think you really try to ameliorate, but to the post.

First do you think there exist a real will to change something? I mean apart from saying "people quit, why do they quit, what can we do to avoid them quitting" I don't see a real will to change something. Each time someone bring an opinion which is not the current accepted here he/she gets rebuked .... so don't wonder why so few player say what discourage them here !

Second about what we are willing to do to ameliorate. I tried. Yes I tried. I applied to the media team 5 years ago ..... but you know I am retired (I am 70 years old) and I have left behind me all the new cool things invented to make you spend more time on explaining why and how you will do this thing, rather than doing the thing (in short and shematizing, you spend 3 monthes to argue about Head X need a rework, when the rework will need 4 hours ). Each time I proposed something, it was, ask him/her, don't change that because of this, Don't do that because ..... etc so I resigned !

[Steve]

I react not to you, because I think you really try to ameliorate, but to the post.

First do you think there exist a real will to change something? I mean apart from saying "people quit, why do they quit, what can we do to avoid them quitting" I don't see a real will to change something. Each time someone bring an opinion which is not the current accepted here he/she gets rebuked .... so don't wonder why so few player say what discourage them here !

Second about what we are willing to do to ameliorate. I tried. Yes I tried. I applied to the media team 5 years ago ..... but you know I am retired (I am 70 years old) and I have left behind me all the new cool things invented to make you spend more time on explaining why and how you will do this thing, rather than doing the thing (in short and shematizing, you spend 3 monthes to argue about Head X need a rework, when the rework will need 4 hours ). Each time I proposed something, it was, ask him/her, don't change that because of this, Don't do that because ..... etc so I resigned !

I'll try my best here.

On the first, I do think there is a "will to change" with the administration on BGTSCC. I'll add that those changes might not be changes I want to see personally, but in hindsight I've "learned to live with" a boatload of changes to the Server reaching all the way back 15 years...and I'm still here. So why I might personally kick and scream at my computer screen now and then, the base utility of BGTSCC—a 24/7 online gaming environment that I can role-play in the Forgotten Realms—continues pleasantly along.

I mean, you just have to look back at the actual changes, or attempts. Like, Biography awards were brought back in order to encourage deeper Character development and story building. Or, when there was an attempt to gauge with the community about making some mechanical changes to "improve" or...simplify, the gaming experience. On the latter, it seemed it was the Community that wanted less change than the Staff.

Enacting change is one thing. Having a really good idea that is convincing to others is another thing. Putting those 2 together to ACTUALLY see change...well, that is the Big Thing, right?? It's a process...

On the second thing, I feel you that you tried to "lend a hand," but that might have appeared to get swatted away. If past is prologue, one way to get something IG via any Department on BGTSCC is to make it, then shop it around. If you just shop around an idea, people will punch holes in it and then it seems implausible to continue the project. Honestly, some things one just has to carry alone. And that IS honestly how a lot of stuff got onto the Server in the first place.

Maybe nowadays, it is different and the preference is for contributors to submit a 99 slide Powerpoint with graphs pinpointing the absolute genius of one's idea. That would suck, but I doubt it is that rigorous. From what I know, usually, one has to do a bit of "proving" their sincerity to the existing Staff about your contributions and one's own will.

If that isn't enough, well...Staff changes often enough!!!

[whatsittoya]

Nuke the multiclass penalty!