Restructure or Status Quo

[Aspect of Sorrow]

[...]

This is a good feature to have in the PW though I would take it a step further and make some dynamic creation of it built into the module than relying on DM activity, as part of a baked-in content increase that's more reliably available. If a DM must be hands-off for much of its execution then the module is better suited to handling it from start to finish in the sake of consistency.

[Rain]

So, I'm sorry but this is why I think DMs should just get off the "by request" MO and just start prowling the scattered player base wherever they are any given day and just throw a random event. Adventures, dungeon crawls, anything we could be doing at a PnP table. What D&D is all about.

If you think it is that simple and easy, I invite you to apply.

From my personal experience, 90% of the random events I have done over the years have been reacted to with very little RP. They become effectively hack-and-slash events. Fancy grinding. And people complaining about buffs running out while RP is going on. It is very disheartening and discouraging for me as a DM to try my best at storytelling when people don't seem to actually want the story - just different mobs to hit.

I still do random events! But mostly I do random events now that are entirely non-combat and instead can lead to follow-ups where there is combat. In fact, a lot of my plots over the years have been started like that. Where I didn't even have a plan for a plot, but threw out a hook and see who would bite, and then if someone did, I would form a plot.

But random combat events is in almost all cases, for me personally, brain melting.

You should take a page out of DM Bloodlust old events. There is a reason his combat events were so successful to the point of them basically feeling like your playing a horror game. His mobs were:

- Custom
- Had actual mechanics players has to overcome.
- Were INCREDIBLY difficult to kill if players just tried to zerg them down.
- Actually utilized their surroundings

The best example I can remember is when a bunch of players got trapped in the Troll Caves (because of another players initiative to do so btw) and were essentially forced into a “Dead by Daylight” situation. Trying to hide from the trolls who were also trying to hide from this giant tunneling man-eating spider.

On top if that players were told ahead of time that the event could bring a perma-strike on their characters if they died.

It was a thrill.

Hell… it was a MOVIE PRODUCTION in some cases.

[DaloLorn]

I don't really have any further response to that other than that it's really annoying to repeatedly be told by several people now who don't want to DM themselves, how to DM after I've been doing this for 9 years, as if I have no idea how the DM client works.

So I'll just leave it at that now.

Would you be more receptive to it coming from someone who's already submitted his application?

Because not only do I identify as precisely the kind of grinder BloodRiot describes (i.e. someone who grinds mostly just to pass the time in the hopes of getting something interesting out of it - which is why I often refuse to solo, because there's virtually no way to get any RP value out of solo grinding!), but I also see in Tanlaus' xvart story a perfect example of an atmospheric event that probably took less than a minute to kick off, just a bit of inspiration.

[Louvaine]

End of the day there are different DMing styles, and you can't be cramping on Ghost's style.

[selhan]

Eh im a troll yet i feel this thread is becoming subtle toxic

I really dont see encouragement or motivation being birthed here ijs...

[Steve]

In my humble opinion, every DM should have their own style, enjoyment, investment in X +/- themes and actions. What’s missing is enough DMs so that BGTSCC has variety, and not just an (semi) anonymous DM person just flipping switches for whatever player enjoyment.

My guess is that many players don’t want to become DMs because of hesitancy around feeling stifled or Ruled about how to DM on BGTSCC. As well many players just aren’t DMing types, and it’s good to know what you want and/or are capable of doing.

It also appears to me that many players are trying to by “DM Lites” in there player-initiated storylines and efforts. They are using the tools within the limits afforded them, and that’s cool stuff. This should be super rewarded, and then maybe we will see more of it, maybe giving confidence to those players TO take up the DM Role.

I’d be happy to hear more from the DMs themselves about how players can directly help them do their “job.” That is also important to know in order for there to be a healthy relationship here.

[BloodRiot]

Eh im a troll yet i feel this thread is becoming subtle toxic

I really dont see encouragement or motivation being birthed here ijs...

Some people maybe be. It shouldn't erase the valid points made though imho.

For the record I am not crapping on Ghost's style. I did state i enjoyed his DMing the one time in 3+ years I have the opportunity to experience it. What he did say was that he looked at players, and because they are engaging in with the world in a way the server supports (pve... grinding, loot running call it what you want, it's pve) but does not fit his prescribed list of rewardable material, he simply carries on without giving said players his time, again because of some other experience he had with a totally different group of players. That on it's own doesn't seem right. If you couple that with the same group of players that never sees DM action, then you see rumors posts and what not that stuff is always happening around the same locations often with the same people you do begin to add up numbers and wonder what they mean.

I'm sorry i really do not mean to be toxic or even come off as toxic in the slightest. I am addressing the words and arguments as they are expressed to me and linking them to my perception of the world(bgtscc as a whole) around me. If i come off as toxic trust me it's not my intention and neither is it to attack Ghost or other DMs. My tone is, to the best of my ability, cordial and neutral.

So if you think this convo is getting toxic then by all means... lock it down. I am sure we'll all meet up again for another round next year. Toodles.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

It's fine, this is an online community with variable sensitivities. Assigning accounts to Foe in the forum Control Panel will auto censor and collapse the post content of the authors undesired for those wanting self moderation abilities. This is on a per account basis.

[Almarea90]

I’d be happy to hear more from the DMs themselves about how players can directly help them do their “job.” That is also important to know in order for there to be a healthy relationship here.

I second this point wholeheartedly.
My adventuring days are long gone and I would be more than happy to help other players to gain visibility/join DM plots or forward their own.
Maybe something akin to play certain characters (for the players who volunteer) as semi NPC who offer support to the DM in order to involve other players. This may include, for example, recruiting groups/spreading the news of active quests, offering support if someone is stuck and monitoring the players efforts for the DM team. Something akin to what Zhazz proposed just done by humans.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

In my humble opinion, every DM should have their own style, enjoyment, investment in X +/- themes and actions. What’s missing is enough DMs so that BGTSCC has variety, and not just an (semi) anonymous DM person just flipping switches for whatever player enjoyment.
My guess is that many players don’t want to become DMs because of hesitancy around feeling stifled or Ruled about how to DM on BGTSCC. As well many players just aren’t DMing types, and it’s good to know what you want and/or are capable of doing.

You recall that there is a process of initiation - ADMs needing to adhere with a degree of limitation to mitigate historic problems with faction leaders and favortism. Today the active community isn't so large to accommodate this and the outliers easier to identify. Either way, there are standards expected of those during the onboarding process. Part of that for the transition from an ADM to DM might benefit from better explanation as to what now can be done under their new privileges.

It also appears to me that many players are trying to by “DM Lites” in there player-initiated storylines and efforts. They are using the tools within the limits afforded them, and that’s cool stuff. This should be super rewarded, and then maybe we will see more of it, maybe giving confidence to those players TO take up the DM Role.

Faction leaders sought a shift and enablement in this a few years back, where there is more that can be accomplished by those leaders for their people that didn't require an impact to the world beyond their microcosms and could float player life-beyond-30 issues in between the DM ones. We proposed as well that some of these could just be simply signed off on by staff for the minor creation of (tools need extended) the event, as well as what the reward output looks like. Staff approval then would take less time in its review than toward setup and event, of the event the core group is most invested in, lessening their need of physically direct involvement in every step of the faction's direction, and there is more incentivization for community involvement, even cross involvement of those factions where the leaders are enabled some to accomplish those tasks.

[AsuraKing]

First things first, I just want to point out that a single DM's preferences on how they operate has absolutely NOTHING to do with adjusting the current status quo, we should be looking at things in a broader sense than nitpicking specifics.

That said, I do think the suggestion of DM's being required to log their event attendance is certainly a good idea. Does it take a little bit of extra effort? Sure, but I think for the health of the server, having a very clear way to see who may be getting too much attention and who might be getting little to no attention is absolutely worth that effort.

Disclaimer: DMs could absolutely already be doing this, but as I'm not one I have no idea.

My RP guild in SWTOR requires event hosts to log all the people that attend their events and it's not really all that much more work, maybe like a min or two of extra effort. This could be as simple as having a shared google sheet among the DMs to log things in (this is my guild's method), a forum thread, or even just a discord tab in their private server. Not only does it help keep track of who's getting involved, it lets us look back at when an event might have taken place. All you really need is to keep track of the names and date, simple as that.

I personally have grown accustomed to never seeing DM events and I make due without them as I forge my own path, but I know people can get quite upset and lose enthusiasm for the server when they cant find any DM events to partake in or know how to get said attention themselves, having a means to easily see if that love is being shared is nothing but a good thing in my books.

[Kitunenotsume]

My RP guild in SWTOR requires event hosts to log all the people that attend their events and it's not really all that much more work, maybe like a min or two of extra effort. This could be as simple as having a shared google sheet among the DMs to log things in (this is my guild's method), a forum thread, or even just a discord tab in their private server. Not only does it help keep track of who's getting involved, it lets us look back at when an event might have taken place. All you really need is to keep track of the names and date, simple as that.

I might suggest a form of some type. I am personally partial to MS Forms because I work in an O365 environment, but Google Forms, JotForm, and presumably web-based options like the DM Request Form could all be their own starting points.

Allowing DMs (and players) to submit small after-action writeups with a standardized format potentially including:

1. Who was Involved (both players and DMs)
2. Where the event occured
3. When the event occured (Rough date and time, maybe duration)
4. A description of what happened (The what and why of the event)
5. A summary of any major turning-points or plot details (Bullet points, plots moved, goals acheived)
6. Any notable gains or aquisitions (like specialty items, payments, XP rewards, or commendations)
7. Maybe a couple screenshots if appropriate (but that could get unweildly large very fast)

Only some of these would be appropriate to have as manditory (players, time, summary, for example); while the rest could be available for submissions where the extra detail is available.

Many survey systems allow for aggregate metrics and the summary sheet AsuraKing suggested, and having a standardised submission available to everyone would help DMs track who is seeing action, and players who don't see DM activity the opportunity to provide updates on their own happenings. The overall intention would be to assist in preserving the record of events, rather than requiring some new source of information that needs to be acted upon.

Edit:
For what clarity it is worth, I advocate that this should be as much or moreso of a tool for players to submit records of their activity than it is some requirement of DMs running events. I also advocate that the actual results should be visible only to the DM group.

[Ghost]

A DM may focus on a specific group for several months while running a particular plot for that group. Your suggestion to have DMs log who they DM for is only going to do one of two things:

1. Make DMs do fewer plots with depth.
2. Subject DMs to even more undeserved claims of favoritism.

These suggestions come off as a desire to be able to point fingers and go "Ha! Corrupt DM! SHAME!", or just some manner of event envy with zero understanding of why events and plot happen in the first place. If that's not what this is, show me how I am misreading this.

[DaloLorn]

With regards to the logging Asura mentioned... back in my day, it was expected that you document all your events on the DM forums, but there was no global tracking of who gets how much DM attention. I'm a little skeptical as to the wisdom of such an approach, anyway... I see great potential if it works out, but also great danger if it doesn't, and both DMs and players alike grow resentful of being told "you can't DM for/be DMed for anymore, it's someone else's turn".

[zhazz]

A DM may focus on a specific group for several months while running a particular plot for that group. Your suggestion to have DMs log who they DM for is only going to do one of two things:

1. Make DMs do fewer plots with depth.
2. Subject DMs to even more undeserved claims of favoritism.

These suggestions come off as a desire to be able to point fingers and go "Ha! Corrupt DM! SHAME!", or just some manner of event envy with zero understanding of why events and plot happen in the first place. If that's not what this is, show me how I am misreading this.

The way I read it, or at least the way I can see such logging being a benefit, is to identify unintentional imbalances in attention given to certain groups/guilds. That unintentional part being the key word here.



On another, though related note, I don't believe any system, which adds more things for a DM to do when doing events is going to help. At least not at this stage. What is needed, are better support systems for DMs and events. Ways to lessen the administrative work DMs have to contend with. Ways to make event setup and execution easier and less prone to disruptions (server crashes, participant bloat, and sudden hiatus).

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On the topic of participant bloat, this is very much an issue on the server, and one that has existed for years. Quite often when a DM announces something is happening at a given location, there's suddenly an influx of players from all across the other side of the world joining in. IC they most likely wouldn't know about the event, but go anyway, because DM event.
This leads to a small event meant for the 3 to 5 players in and around an area suddenly balloons up to 15+ players — of which most are standing around being spectators until combat happens, and then hoping for a reward or just enjoying the show. It taxes the DM, the original players in the event, and the server itself due to a million buff effects.

Avoiding participant bloat, however, requires a mentally shift among the player-base, which is difficult to do. Difficult, but not impossible.

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I’d be happy to hear more from the DMs themselves about how players can directly help them do their “job.” That is also important to know in order for there to be a healthy relationship here.

I second this point wholeheartedly.
My adventuring days are long gone and I would be more than happy to help other players to gain visibility/join DM plots or forward their own.
Maybe something akin to play certain characters (for the players who volunteer) as semi NPC who offer support to the DM in order to involve other players. This may include, for example, recruiting groups/spreading the news of active quests, offering support if someone is stuck and monitoring the players efforts for the DM team. Something akin to what Zhazz proposed just done by humans.

I think having both human-operated and an automated system is better than either or. The fully automated system runs the risk of feeling a little bland without the little touches from a DM (during or at setup). The human-operated one can allow those touches to happen in the form of a player acting as a NPC, but does run the risk of fizzling out due to scheduling issues, leave of absence, burnout, and real life.

At least Aspect of Sorrow, one of the most insightful modders on the server that I know of, seem to think some kind of in-game automation is possible, which gives me hope

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[...]

This is a good feature to have in the PW though I would take it a step further and make some dynamic creation of it built into the module than relying on DM activity, as part of a baked-in content increase that's more reliably available. If a DM must be hands-off for much of its execution then the module is better suited to handling it from start to finish in the sake of consistency.